Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

I see this all the time. You're not alone. Take your power back. Model to your girls what you want for them. Don't let DH get away with it. Just stop. Stop doing it all. Go on strike if you need to.

Equality isn’t an ideology.

Why can’t the man do part time and allow the woman time to progress with her career? What happens if the man is in a minimum wage position? What does stepping up mean?
DH and I have both always worked full time - both pulled our weight at home and continued with our careers.

I am sometimes reluctant to post on these sorts of threads as it can sometimes tip into 'victim blaming' which I really don't want to do and there are so many cultural and economic pressures that lead to women taking on so much of these burdens but I am in my early 60s and my husband is just not like this at all

When I was younger I was very unhappy a lot of the time in my relationships. Looking back I can see that a lot of that that was my absolute inability to accept that I would need to do all the things women tend to do in relationships (heterosexual ones anyway). I was just too fundamentally selfish and also didn't seem to have the same emotional need to take care of people (even children really) that many women seem to have. I was also honest enough to see that had I been born a man I'd have behaved like quite a few of them did, not cruelly but arrogantly and self entitled and lazy. This meant I had to find a man who was 'nicer' than I was and who did not subscribe to those toxic views and if I didn't find him them I would not marry or have children.

I only really came to this realisation though after my first marriage failed becaue my H had an affair but really he did that because I was so absolutele miserable in our relationship and much of that was because he did not help with the everyday load of just 'living' . He didn't clean or shop or cook much etc and I refused to be the only one to do that stuff so deliberately didn't do a lot of it as I was wating for him to step up. He just never did, despite promising to,and we lived in a lot of mess and almost chaos for a while, which made me very unhappy We didn't have children and I already know I would not be able to do that if we had children. We ended up divorced

It took me almost 10 years after my divorce to meet a man not like that (they are not common in my view and are often taken) but DH is just not like that, he has always contributed, and taken on tasks without me needing to ask. He has done all the food shopping, food planning and more than 50% of the cooking for the last 25 years.

He also lived in a mess when I met him but he made the effort and whilst cleaning has neved been his priority, I only had to say that having the place a tip made me unhappy and that I didn't see why I should do it all and he made the effort. He has never been as good at seeing what needs to be cleaned but he definitely still does quite a bit of cleaning. When DS was small, there was never any feeling that all the things around school and childcare were my responsibiliy. They just weren't, he did all sorts of things like buying presents for children's birthday parties, organising play dates, booking hair and teeth appointments and sometimes reminded me of things I had forgotten and vica versa.

This not to say we never had arguments about things, mostly cleaning as this is his blind spot, though almost never about what he did for DS as he absolutely did his share there, emotionally, practically, economically - in every way. I also had to accept DH's way of doing things in regards to cleaning, which meant giving up some control and giving up the belief that only I could do things properly. That was never too difficult for me though as I am pretty lazy by nature

I didn't know much when I married DH but I knew what I would not accept in a life partner and we discussed those things quite early on so he knew my expectations. I watched some of my friends get together with men who on the surface looked a better bet than my 'shorter than average', somewhat scrufffy, non cool (but wonderful to me) man. They picked men who didn't cook and had no interest in learning, who it was obvious would never contribute to the domestic side of life even before they had children, which meant when they did marry and had a child, things just got worse. They picked men who did not respect them, not really respect them - All because they were 'In Love!'

In order to have a successful long term relationship or marriage, absolutely core to that is respect. Respect for your partner and what they do and how they contribute to your life together. Women often think their men respect them but if the man thinks of the work that women does around the house and for his childrebn as 'beneath him' somehow or something 'women do' that tells you he does not respect what his wife does for him or therefore his wife. The signs of this in a man are clear very early on, but we just just tend to ignore them instead of setting clear boundaries and expectations early on.

This

I think having children does require one person to step back from their career. The issue I took with your post was that you said WOMEN should work part time.

We should be saying one parent should work part time and that should be a discussion with both options on the table, and I’d love to get to a place where 50% of the time it’s men who are taking on the part time role.

I honestly believe that there is some element of choice in the women being run ragged. If these are women who are successful in their careers, then they are capable of delegating and coaching. It’s not ideal to do this to your husband, but if it’s a short term pain for a long term gain then it’s worth the investment.

@Doteycat because leaving them is not always that easy. Especially financially - if you’ve not been a single parent before you won’t realise the difficulty and pressure of all the finances being on you.

My granny (72) and I were chatting about this a few weeks ago and her take on it is that there is so much pressure on women these days. In her day, she knew she didn't want uni/career but did want marriage and kids so she took a little job locally just to tide her over for a bit, married my grandad and had 5 kids. He worked Monday to Friday as was the norm back then and they had a great living but she never had to go out to work anymore and didn't get burned out because she was happy that her job was running the home and raising the kids. Now the societal expectations for us are to be amazing in our careers, have immaculate homes, be incredible gentle parents if we do have kids and also keep ourselves looking fantastic all the time. And unfortunately a lot of men haven't moved on from a 'well I go out to work, what more do you want' kind of mentality. You see it here all the time where a woman works full time and yet the care of kids, house and even care needs of aging family all fall on her. I think this is partly why women are choosing more and more not to have kids, because men just don't step up to the plate often enough and they see what their grandmothers, mothers and sisters have had to contend with.

Yeah or discuss a rota between you

I’m really happy with it, but the setups I see around us (friends and family) are honestly pretty similar.

I’m never sure how to post about my relationship on these threads without sounding like a bit of a smug idiot, which isn’t my intention. So, hopefully that’s not how I’m coming across!

Your post reads like your husband is an accessory or a pet, not a person. You seem to be structuring the whole problem round "DH is useless, give up on him, how do I sort this out between me and my daughters without his involvement?" Can you see the flaw, when what you are trying to achieve is modelling mutuality and respect?

It's not about training him or getting him to do lists. It's bringing him in at the "management level" of the problem. Together, redefine your relationship so it isn't you "managing" the household and kids and him being a more or less recalcitrant employee. You don't model a more equal relationship by managing him better or getting him to do more tasks on the list you wrote. You get there by finding a way for you both to treat each other in the way you want your girls to learn - and while you're at it, treat them with the same respect too because how they themselves are treated is what they will serve back to you later. If you can't get his buy-in to the problem at "management level" then you have already lost.

It's not a perfect analogy, but how a manager treats junior staff members is not the same as how they treat a fellow manager in a neighbouring dept. Invite him to "apply for a promotion" and redefine the way you work together so you are not only modelling, but actually feeling, like you are both being treated with utter respect and consideration by the other. I think it starts with self-respect, but that needs to underpin a very healthy dose of mutual respect.

I'm a big believer in sharing jobs, at least sometimes, rather than parcelling them out. Everyone enjoys a break occasionally, and doing the other person's usual job is a great reminder of how much they are doing for you every day. It's so easy to start taking the other's contribution for granted.

I do think that you might be lying to your daughters by saying that your partner is a “really good guy, a lovely kind person” when he clearly isn’t. If he was he’d be helping you model a solid,equal relationship.

I mostly agree. Women are their own worst enemies.

I’m not sure if its martyrdom - or maybe insecurity or looking for validation? Or maybe just plain old judginess and competitiveness?

But it’s other women who are creating all this “pressure” to be seen as the perfect homemaker and parent by spending their time “making memories” and adding more unnecessary stuff to do. Oh - and insisting they are the only ones who can do it correctly.

I find the whole “mental load” thing puzzling, I’m married to a man who does at least half and does it better than me. Most of us move in with our partners before we get married nowadays, surely that is the time to set out boundaries and expectations? Surely if they were taking the piss out of you in terms of effort levels and contribution back then, you wouldn’t go ahead and add children into the mix?

@Sofiewoo fascinated by your quote comment. You think we shouldn’t teach our daughters to be financially independent? You think OP would be in a better position if she wasn’t? You then go on to comment on her DH which is not relevant to whether OP is financially dependent or not.

Or does the thought of women having real choices bother you?

But what if more than 50% of women WANT to be the parent working part time and doing more parenting? Men and women aren't interchangeable, and studies show women who are breadwinners do even more housework.

You're being idealistic, I'm being realistic based on the relationships I see around me.

In modern Britain, it all falls on a woman, to earn money and the heavy lifting re mental load of family life and still majority of work in raising kids and housework. Personally the choice for me it is either a career or family with kids, not the both at the same time due to above. Men are very resistant of taking either of both responsibilities, taking equal share of workload re family or be a sole earner. Hence so many childfree women nowadays in younger generation. I am sure it will get worse.

Re your question, I don't think you need to lie your daughters etc. I am sure they noticed already how exhausted and burnt out you are and make their own conclusion. I did.

This is a very complicated post, with talk about generations and lying to dds etc, when the problem is much simpler - your husband isn’t doing his fair share!

You seem to think that’s inevitable, but it’s not. Yes, society plays a part in conditioning men to think it’s ok, but in an individual marriage you have the choice not to accept this.

How do we avoid lying to our daughters? We stop accepting the mental load. We make sure partners know it’s not acceptable for them to do the same amount of paid work as us, but none (or less) of the rest of the huge amount of work there is in a family.

Personally, I had to leave mine, but yes that does allow me to be more truthful I guess.

I love that there's all these posters who want to come on and tell women its their problem that men behave like this.

I do think a certain some women learn to play this role but the idea women wake up and chose to martyr themselves i just don't buy...

Most women are forced into annoying trophes by the patriarchy

What are you supposed to do when your husband wont meet you half way / thinks required tasks are pointless and stupid...

if you want to press your case you are The Nag, when totally unheard you either stick there, or escalate your message at which point you move into Hysterical Wife.
Or you can just get on with it AKA the martyr.

It's hard. What do you do when you have a DH who appeared to be on board with 'true equality' right up until the point when you needed him to step up, and then he didn't? Yes, he might be perfectly capable, but what about when he just doesn't want to?

You're already stuck, you're married you've got kids (which is usually what has precipitated you needing him to step up and be equal in the first place) - do you separate and do absolutely everything on your own anyway while he does a half arsed job and likely hardly sees the kids, sending the message that men can dip out of parenting if they want? Or do you stay together, let the kids see him failing to parent and send the message that fathers can't do what mothers do? Or carry on taking it all on to keep the family running and send the message that mothers must assume the full load?

It sounds like you fell into the trap of doing it all but thinking that your h is a great man because your mum did it all too. Your mum doing it all and not complaining made you think that it’s not a big deal and has shaped your life and expectations with your h. You’re repeating history and risk your dds picking men like their dad because you and him present your current situation as normal. It sounds like you’ve given up expecting more when we live in an age where there’s are 1000s of tutorials for mundane stuff like how to clean a toilet or iron.

Most couple I know don’t do 50/50 but the men do a big percentage on weekends and days off. I don’t know exactly which tasks they do but there must be tasks that your h can own? He’s clearly happy with the status quo so the only person who can change this is you. If you choose not to then you need to own the fact that you’re being a martyr when there’s another grown adult who is pleading weaponised incompetence likes he’s a young child.

ask your mum if she thrived on it OP, or just put a good face on it.

My DCs have had a good education in how a household works, nobody gets to do all the drudgery, we anticipate, nobody needs to be told what needs doing...

I think that if you choose to accept a life like this, you should tell your children that's what you're doing, and make it clear that they don't have to accept a similar life when they grow up.

I am currently a SAHM (until September!) and that hasn't stopped my DH from doing 50% of all childcare and housework outside of working hours. I might do a little cleaning or stick some laundry on through the day, but my primary 'job' is to engage with our children. The mental load is also split 50/50. Our marriage is very happy because we are a team.

We make sure our two sons see my DH cleaning, discussing meal plans, and actively parenting. We are not bringing up boys that will sit back and let their future partners run around after them, we are bringing up fully functional and respectful men.

I think the tide is turning and our set up is becoming more normal (at least in my circles). What you describe sounds more like my mum's generation than ours. We recently went on holiday with a big group of parent friends and we definitely weren't the only ones sharing the burden. I'd say it was about a 70/30 split in favour of couples who worked as a team (though one man child did drunkenly complain that the other dads were pushovers and making him look bad 🙄).

"Good guys" and "doting dads" don't sit on their arses while their wife does everything.

I would suggest raising your standards and stop raising your children to believe this bullshit is normal.

@ifwallsbreakdown

’Why are men not like this in most other countries?’

Most other countries? That’s quite the sweeping statement. I suppose you are excluding SAUDI, Qatar and most Middle Eastern countries, also most of sub Saharan Africa (why? Maybe best not to ask) because the most cursory inspection would lead you to the conclusion that the men in these countries are indeed ‘not like this’ - and not in a good way. My ex cleaner, now friend, is Brazilian and she ‘nearly fainted from Astonishment’ when she compared British men to her compatriots, to the extent that she married one.

I lived in France for fifteen years, and I thought their society was far more male privileged than England, men and women had very different domestic roles, and the men rarely seemed to assume any chores like cleaning, shopping, day to day childcare, though they were big on mowing and tasks involving power tools.

It is a work in progress, IMHO, which will only succeed if women like the OP start to demand fairer conditions and division of domestic labour.

I was a SAHM for many years and when I returned to work I had this exact same problem. My husband expected his life not to change, presumed I would continue doing everything alongside working also. I think there was definitely an element of turning a blind eye, weaponised incompetence and laziness. Our marriage went through a bad patch at this stage.

It took many many discussions and me almost having a physical and mental burnout before he finally understood and stepped up. I did have to teach him how to do laundry, and it might not always be done as well as I’d do it, but I keep quiet and let him get on with it.

I think the key is to have set chores that are yours alone. We have set days when we cook each, I do the kids school uniforms and he does their home clothes, he does breakfast with the kids and unloads the dishwasher while I make packed lunches for everyone, he is in charge of one bathroom and I do the other etc etc. It might be a bit too regimented for some peoples liking but it saves any arguments or one person feel like the other is slacking. Our marriage is now really strong and happy. I don’t feel any resentment anymore. You do have to sometimes drop your standards a little and zip your mouth when they aren’t doing a job as well as you would do!

I think you need to sit husband down and really explain how exhausted you are and how you feel the current set up is very unfair. You don’t want resentment to set in and ruin your marriage. If he really is a kind and fair man then he will volunteer to step up and take over some of the household and child jobs that you are carrying alone.