To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

So why do you think one group of men should get privileged treatment and allowed to use an alternate space and not others?

I note your total lack of regard for women who want male free spaces - we are the majority after all.

Succinctly put. For me, this is one of the most important considerations in the whole debate (which shouldn’t even be a debate.) How are we supposed to know we are safe? If a man, who identifies as a man (I’m not using that stupid cis word), walks into the women’s toilets, we are immediately on our guard because he shouldn’t be there. We are suspicious. We might quickly walk out - if we’re lucky - I mean what is he doing there if not to do something criminal? If same man walks in wearing a dress, we are supposed to ignore our natural instinct to be wary and just casually continue what we’re doing. Any man could do that. Any man at all. The sort of man who wants to sexually assault a woman is going to take/create any opportunity he can. And he can stand there, in his dress, while we trip over ourselves trying to be nice and respectful, all the while semi-unwittingly placing ourselves in a more vulnerable situation. It’s a fucking disgrace that women should have to spend time worrying about this nonsense.

Nope. I know man which is an adult human male and woman which is an adult human female. I am assuming cis is a word made up by the TRA?

So are you suggesting we allow all gay men in women’s toilets as well? I mean, why should one group of men be protected and another not?

I don’t care. They’re blokes so I don’t want them in there, violent or not. They make me feel uncomfortable so that’s all that matters. They either need to go to the men’s or the disabled loos.

Oh dear 🤦‍♀️ 🤦‍♀️ Are you trans?

Oh, that’s kind, but no need. Not hyped up, but am concerned for less privileged women and girls than me - that need safe women-only toilets, rape crisis centres and toilets, to name a few. I know it can be difficult to see that when you have better options available to you than others might.

I'm sure it's been said but unfortunately being a trans woman doesn't bring down male violence eg stats have DD shown trans women can still be violent men underneath

'There is plenty of evidence' - where is it, then? I've never seen any at all.

I've never thought of it as 'its not safe to allow transwomen in women's toilets'. To me it's always been 'its not safe to open women's toilets to men, due to the high levels of male VAWG'. (Plus the many other reasons women don't want men in their private spaces, in addition to safety concerns) I don't think that view is even controversial - transwomen agree the presence of men in toilets creates a risk to women.
The controversy has always been whether transwomen should be excluded from the group 'men', and included in the group 'women' hence not part of the group that should be excluded based on risk.
To make this about whether TW as individuals are dangerous requires we agree that they are a seperate group of 'not men' and examine them separately from men as a whole. The SC ruling has been clear we should not do this, so how safe or otherwise they are as individuals is really moot.
It's also a bit of a straw man where the lovely transwomen we know who wouldn't hurt a fly are offered up, and met with I raise you Katie Dolatowski (and others) on a loop. Which just contributes to the idea that transwomen are being stereotyped for the actions of a few, when that's not the point at issue. The point has always been that access to women's spaces requires one to be a woman.

The fact that all the trans activist come out with the ‘yes but theres single stalls….women aren’t at risk from TW….’ …. Makes me wonder, if this is the case, why don't these men/TW use the ‘single stalls’ in men’s spaces ????
Never had an answer to that though.

it’s all validation to TW…the ‘look at me in a woman’s space’ with their foot on the sink 'trophy hunter' pose photos…male entitlement at its finest.

plus all the wanking videos, and comments about listening to women pee….the rifling through tampon boxes etc…. Activists will tell you this doesn’t happen, but there’s enough evidence to prove it does….why done women want this in our spaces ????

For anyone who wants to know what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK
Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.
As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.

I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

And for strong safeguarding policy, a group of male people generally would need to have been found to have the same or less risk of committing violent or sex crime than female people as the comparator. Having a risk profile as a group of merely less than other male people is not sufficient for access to female single sex spaces based on safety. And remember, it is not just the safety aspect of toilet usage that is to be considered. Privacy and dignity considerations are also important and for that, there can be no exceptions for any sub group of male people (above 10 years old according to the guidance).

Asked DH what he would do if he saw a TW as you have described, because of course if the TW was dressed in a gender neutral ( ie normal) way, no one would know….

He said he would get out of there as soon as possible, because no one wants to be in a confined space with a mentally disturbed person.

There will be no answer to the point that if women are so well protected in cubicles from male people in female single sex spaces, why are male people with transgender identities just as protected in male single sex spaces because it is too inconvenient as a question.

Whereas the reality of female toilet usage also is dismissed or ignored.

Female people use their toilets differently to male people. Remember that we are told over and over and over that male people 'just want to pee!. Although this is not the question the OP has asked.

Female people use our toilet spaces for much more than just weeing. And the safety issue is not simply based on whether female people are attacked or not. Female people have always needed our spaces to be single sex because as well as toileting, there are common experiences female people share that occur outside of locked doors. Although this is not the question the OP has asked.

Here is my list.

I have had to use the toilet while having a pram / pushchair jammed into the door with groceries.

I have had to have my mum use the public toilet because the disable toilet was not available and had her wheelchair jammed in the door because I couldn't leave her sit to move it and shut the door.

I have had breastmilk leaks / children's vomit / food spilled on my clothes and needed to have an unbuttoned top to dry the top under the hand drier.

I have come across other women quite regularly washing out their tops or their skirts etc and drying them enough to put back on .

I have friends who have miscarried in toilets and needed assistance and for that to be female people to make it more comfortable.

Others have other items to add.

Female toilet usage has never been the same as male toilet usage. These things are uncomfortable and can be quite humiliating. But at least in a female only toilet it is a little better. That means no males.

It was never appropriate for male people to be removing the privacy that female people need in public toilets. That I see so many male people declare that they 'just want to pee', shines a fucking beacon on the fact that they fail to understand the needs that female people have, and have NEVER actually listened to us about this.

Er, right.

So where does he think the trans woman should pee?

I was trying to make the point that at least one physically robust man would be seriuosly discombobulated by man dressed as a Hooker in a male space , and would remove himself rather than physically attacking the strangely dressed person. I believe that male response is more likely in most circumstances than aggression, although I suppose if you add in alcohol or drugs the probability of aggression will rise , as it would in non trans related incidents.

Where does he think the TW should pee? I’ve asked . Certainly not in the female space ( see reason above). Preferably in a trans space, although since he is not an idiot he knows that this would involve very considerable public expense and probably not be used ( affirmation).

What he really thinks is that it is better for society if societal norms are observed, Which means that the individual needs to behave in public in such a way as to cause the minimum of stress, anxiety and discomfort to the other members of that society. But he is old.

Here's transwoman Kathleen Riot 's 1000th photo of being perfectly safe in a men's toilet:

https://x.com/RocknRoller2019/status/1920553022347730977

Here's transwoman Fionne Orlander, also perfectly safe in a men's toilet:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women

If all the people handwringing now about the poor transwomen who can't possibly be expected to use men's toilets, had supported Fionne and Miranda's campaign for separate spaces for transpeople (which started in 2019), think how many separate spaces there would be now Think where it'd be now, if Stonewall had spent some of their millions on it.

Then think about why they didn't do that, and just tried to force women to give up our spaces instead of getting their own. Spoiler alert- it's not because they just want to pee, or for safety,cos separate spaces would have solved that. Because it was never about having a space. It was always about using the women in the space.

If every woman took a photo of every time they used a womens toilet without incident, there would be billions of photos and accounts of women being generally / statistically safe in those spaces, and that the existence of less than 0.55% of the population is not an existential threat to them.

And the same with men. There are billions of men of all ages, sizes and cultures who use men’s toilets without incident however they present. If it’s just about TW needing to pee, I, sure they’ll be perfectly safe in the men’s.

Exactly. So why is there this movement to prioritise men's safety over women's?

So the rest of us have to tolerate the minority making the decisions? No change there then.

How many female people being harmed in any way because male people access their single sex spaces is acceptable to you before you support those male people being excluded from those female single sex spaces?

Considering that there are women reporting their harm directly caused by male people with transgender identities in the female single sex toilets even on MN on some threads that they never bother reporting, does it have to be a conviction to be considered in that number? Or can we just go back to understanding that any male person over the age of around 8 (or 10 apparently) years old should not be accessing female single sex spaces, regardless of how they identify?

What other group's philosophical belief about themselves that doesn't reflect material reality should be considered higher priority that the needs of female people ? Yet female people's needs are dismissed in your post.

Plenty of transwomen don’t wear make up and don’t dress like Barbie. This is Julia Serrano, a biologist with a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biophysics (Columbia).

This Serrano?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPP5zWSagAMXN-s.jpg:large

Well I am pretty confident DH wouldn't sexually assault a woman if he used Womens toilets but he still shouldn't be there
For me its not about judging which men may be a danger but that womens only spaces are just for women with no exceptions.
Its like cat and dog shelters, many dogs would be fine in a cats shelter but they are not cats and should be in a dog shelter.