To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

no.
For sure they are victims of violence.

But 2 women a week are killed.

that is: Two. Women. A. Week. Are. Killed.

Murdered.

When men who think they're women pay any attention at all to this, i might start to pay attention to their figures.

Proof that you can have a PhD and still talk a load of nonsense.

Serrano's book is all "me, me, me". Never a thought for real women who can't avoid misogyny simply by choosing to present as a man.

People can fantasise about what they like during sex. In any case, I gave her as an example of a transwoman who doesn’t wear make up or dress like Barbie. What do you have to say about that?

Thanks, I was looking for that.

Nothing other than that Serano passes very convincingly as a man and should be at no risk in men's toilets.

Bloody hell😳 Only a man would say that. Only. A. Man. A wolf in sheep’s clothing.

You don't need to use a metaphor here. Literally a man in women's clothing.

I don’t care if they are or aren’t. That’s for the men to sort out between themselves.

Tbf the Ministry of Justice figures show that the proportion of men who identify as women that are in prison for sex offences is significantly higher than the proportion of sex offenders in the rest of the male prison population.

This means that either :
Sex offenders are adopting a trans identity in order to reduce their sentence (this ploy does work in some cases according to newspaper reports) or get placed in a women’s prison (rules on this have changed only recently)

Or

Men who identify as women have a greater propensity to be sex offenders. This is equally plausible given that many experience serious mental health issues, excessive hardcore porn consumption and a major problem with women having boundaries.

I suspect it’s a combination of the two which neatly highlights the issue that we can’t assume the motivations of any male entering women’s facilities.

Even ‘national treasure’ (I say that through gritted teeth) famous transsexual (I believe that to be correct language for how he self described) Jan Morris made sexual comments to a young (and very naive) Yasmin Alibhai Brown while in the ladies toilets about Yasmins underwear.

This might be controversial (although what the fuck isn’t) but I reject the framing of all this as primarily about safety.
Fear and supposed vulnerability is used by TRAs to manipulate the public. I don’t see why we should get dragged into positioning fear as the primary or only matter of concern.
Actual assaults are awful - whoever suffers them - but are rarer than general discomfort and inconvenience. Absence of male people in female spaces cuts down women’s inconvenience and discomfort. All the time. In general. As a rule. Not as “reduces risk of-“ type scenario. Just as a “it always works” type scenario. We’re too afraid to talk about taking steps that materially benefit women in terms of providing them with the kind of relaxed and comfortable access to the world and generally nicer lives that men take for granted.
I absolutely reject the framing that being afraid of being raped or otherwise assaulted is the only reason to provide women with single sex spaces.
this is not the question that was asked but it’s connected because - I’m sick of the manipulative framing of all this and frankly I kind of don’t believe it

I think the two things are connected though.

The line from trans activists is that women lust put up with their discomfort at sharing our single sex spaces with trans women because we are at no risk of being raped or assaulted by them and they are at risk of being raped or assaulted in men's toilets.

Of course, there is compelling evidence to suggest that we are at risk of being raped or assaulted by them in women's spaces and no compelling evidence to suggest that they are at risk of being raped or assaulted in men's spaces.

Surely that should be the standard though?

No one has said that men using the women’s spaces is an ‘existential threat’.

Toilets are sex segregated for reasons of women’s safety and privacy. Letting men who identify as women in means they are no longer sex segregated.

It’s fascinating how keen you are to argue for a certain group of men (ie any man that fancies it) to use women’s spaces when women are saying no.

Do you have a problem with respecting women’s boundaries?

@BundleBoogie well that's even worse than I thought then.

I agree. And what women mean by safety and what TRAs means by safety can be very different things in any case. Like the time some gender advocates refused to speak at a conference because they felt unsafe that a GC woman was speaking, via zoom, on a different day to them. The woman was then deplatformed. It does illustrate the talking at crossed purposes which has been weaponised.

Women are actual full humans who have a right to stuff that works for us in navigating the world, not just stuff that lessens the chances of us being murdered or raped.

I say that it doesn’t matter what a male person wears they are still male and not women. They still shouldn’t be in female single sex spaces.

Why should any male person be allowed by society to access female single sex spaces? Regardless of what they wear?

HangryLikeTheHulk · Yesterday 18:18

Trans people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence.

Rubbish. Just because 2 or 3 had trouble in America, it doesn't mean that they're more likely to. In fact, in Britain, they're absolutely the safest demographic statistically and numerically. Children under 2 are more likely to be the victims of violence.

Remember, transw report a double take as a violent, transphobic hate crime.

I also say that what a male person who shows such clear misogyny wears doesn’t make any difference to the way that male person treats female people. I listen to what they say and observe their behaviour rather than look at whether they present themselves as a woman. Although, any male person that presents themselves as their porn fantasy woman ideal in public is very concerning, and is telling society exactly how they view female people.

But really, the fact that Serrano is celebrated for writing about being degraded ‘as a woman’, makes me very keen to avoid them in spaces set aside for female people because they have publicly shown their distain for female people and they don’t seem to understand respecting female people’s boundaries.

Fruitbat99 · Yesterday 19:25

No, I've never heard of a trans woman assaulting anyone in a toilet.

My considered advice is to consult some news reports dated later than 1987.

Do you mean my post about the prisons? Yes it’s bad - when I think back over all the things I’ve learnt about men who identify as women in prisons it’s quite eyewatering.

There was a male paedophile (I forget his name rn) who was placed in a women’s prison on the South coast with a mother and baby unit.

Female prisoners have reported being sexually harassed, flashed at in the lunch queue and forced to use the communal showers with a man but punished when they complain.

Two extremely violent male criminals were placed in a women’s prison, apparently hoovered up all the covered sports prizes in a prison event and had sex with each other openly in view of the women. They were eventually separated.

A male murderer who tortured a man to death with a rolling pin and raped him was placed in a women’s prison.

Isla Bryson - say no more about his ‘post double rape charge trans identification’ and the subsequent decision to place join in a women’s prison which was only reversed due to public outcry.

I think it’s really important to remember that there are far fewer women’s prisons (only approx 4000 female prisoners compared with 18000 male last time I checked) and because women are a far lower security risk they are run differently from a security point of view. They are quite literally not geared up to house violent men and manage the obvious risk of placing sex offenders in the same spaces as women and often babies.

Policies on this originated in the early 90s when prison ministers discussed placing trans identifying men in women’s prisons with the purpose of socialising them as ‘women’. Utilising female prisoners as support creatures for often violent and sexually disordered men.

One male prisoner convicted of killing his male partner and hiding the body in a rolled up carpet served his sentence and was released. He then committed a serious sexual assault on a female shop worker (in a ‘trans’ clothing shop) in order to be sent back to prison so he could have ‘feminisation’ surgery and obtain his GRC.

He achieved all of this and on his second release he was invited as a special guest to the Houses of Parliament to advocate for men like him to be placed in women’s prisons. He now campaigns for more ‘trans rights’.

Sorry for the screed but sometimes it needs saying again for anyone new to this.

Sorry that was to @Thelostjewels

@BundleBoogie I'm speechless.

Yes, I think several police forces issued adverts encouraging these men to report ‘misgendering’ as a hate crime.

There have also been hate crimes recorded for women’s rights stickers in public. One lady put up an innocuous women’s rights poster in her front door and had a visit from the police to tell her to take it down.

Kellie Jay Keen was made to attend a police interview to explain why she had been ‘untoward about paedophiles’. Apparently reported by someone who heard ‘paedophile’ and assumed she was talking about ‘trans’ people which is a bit of a tell as the women’s rights campaigners make a point of NOT doing that.

I cant even imagine how stupid this answer is!
What does this poster think that violence ends there & that it's a circus,well you'll be giving up up more than your child's rights as violence doesn't end where it starts it goes home too where you think your safe & it doesn't end with male on male violence,it's domestic and violence against women.

It is not controversial at all. Privacy and dignity is very important. Safety is not just about assaults either.

Did anyone understand a word of this?