To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

The thread is about whether transwomen are at higher risk of violence if they use a male toilet. My view from the beginning has been that it depends on the context, venue, circumstances, and that the transgender person needs to assess the risk and make their own call - regardless of what the law says - it’s about their safety in the moment

And this approach gives no consideration to the safety of the women in the space that that transwoman has decided he needs to use for his own safety. That's the point. Your approach only considers the transwoman. Women exist and are actual full humans with our own rights, needs, and wants. We are not support animals or human shields.

And how about the male people with transgender identities who will choose to use a female single sex space when they have threatened and intimidated female people about allowing them to use female single sex spaces?

Do you actually understand why safeguarding single sex spaces needs very clear boundaries yet?

The safest option for all female people is if all male people are excluded from female single sex spaces. As per the legitimate discrimination exceptions allowed under the EA.

No male person with a transgender identity should be making any fucking decisions about whether they should be in a space designated as being female single sex. They should respect all female people and keep out and find another solution for their personal situation.

This also means that not one person has to arbitrate whether someone is 'transgender' or not. Or even that really 'hateful' act, transgender enough to enter a space.

It is not hateful to point this out. It is, in fact, the law of the UK under the EA.

And how exactly do we tell the difference between the peaceable trans people and the violent trans people and the pervy trans people?

Telling the difference between males and females is much easier. So we have rules keeping all the males out.

This approach allows female people to be harmed in many different ways.

Something that the poster has not yet acknowledged.

No male people should be 'making their own call' about entering a female single sex space. The 'call' should only be to stay out and find another solution.

I do appreciate though that the poster thought to add "regardless of what the law says'. That makes it perfectly clear that we should not expect this poster to respect for the law at all.

And they can. They are very welcome to use the toilets designated for their sex. And anyone harassing them for doing so should be dealt with as with any other harrassment offence.

How many transwomen would have to express these views, before you acknowledge that they are not extremist but are commonplace amongst TRAs? That those views are actually 'the majority view of that community'? Because there are literally thousands of examples of transwomen saying similar things. I posted the terf is a slur link upthread but there are plenty more besides those.

Or is it like the examples of when women have already been harmed by transwomen in women's spaces, that the number which would make that matter is always n+1.

I get the strong impression from your posts that you know some nice peaceful transpeople. I do too. But there's no evidence that those transpeople represent the majority of transpeople, or that the peacefulness of those transpeople in any way mitigates the danger posed by the likes of Baker or any if the other violent aggressive misogynists amongst the transwoman community.

If you let the nice transwomen in, you have to let Baker and his ilk in. There's no way not to. Apparently you think that's a risk to women worth taking, but I don't.

Yet I have very often witnessed female people “making their own call” and using male toilets at concert venues for example when there are queues for the female bathroom.

Nobody asked the men for consent, they just assessed the situation and did what they needed to do.

For anyone who wants to know what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK
Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ
Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.

And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.
The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

Plus, female single sex spaces are needed not just for safety for female people but for privacy and dignity which is often unique to female people's usage of that particular space.

As would I.

Do you understand that when women do this they are putting themselves at increased risk, whereas when men do it they are putting women at risk?

And that is also wrong nd should stop. Men deserve privacy and dignity too. So let’s all agree. Single sex spaces should be single sex and anyone of the opposite sex using them should be removed from the space. Awesome. We’re getting somewhere now aren’t we. ☺️

I agree that no female person should now be accessing male single sex spaces.

Because as you seem to be now acknowledging, male single sex spaces are needed for privacy and dignity, not just safety.

However, it is the female people who are making a judgement call about their own safety when they do that. Female people do not have a known and established high risk of committing violent and sex offences. It is those female people choosing to take that risk.

When a male person, any male person, enters a female single sex space the risk of harm is from the male person.

I am very glad that you pointed this out. This is yet another post about how symmetry is lacking.

To be clear, two scenarios are only symmetrical in privacy and dignity aspects, not safety. Once a male person enters a female single sex space, that male is considered to carry a high risk of harming a female person within that space. After all, that is why all male people were always expected to stay out of female single sex spaces unless they were children.

If you let the nice transwomen in, you have to let Baker and his ilk in. There's no way not to.

The point that we have been making for pages and pages. Thank you namey, I just thought it needed to said again.

It is why to be fair to all, the law has to be to exclude 'all' male people. No one then needs to arbitrate who is and isn't transgender. No one then needs to arbitrate who is 'transgender enough'. It is clear and it is fair.

Honestly, I don't think @HangryLikeTheHulk cares. If women are collateral damage, that's just tough, isn't it? A price worth paying. 🤷‍♀️

Well that’s exactly what happened here.

Did you feel clever when you posted that?

Trans people, particularly trans women, are overwhelmingly more at risk of harassment or violence from males, not females.

UK Home Office data (2018–2022) on hate crimes shows that most transphobic hate crimes are perpetrated by men.

In the 2021/22 dataset, 84% of hate crime suspects across all categories were male, and there’s no evidence to suggest trans-related hate crimes differ significantly in that pattern.

Galop’s 2020 report on trans people in the UK:

• 4 in 5 trans people experienced a hate crime in the previous 12 months.

• The majority of those crimes involved verbal abuse, threats, or physical attacks, most often from men in public or domestic settings.

International studies (e.g. U.S. Transgender Survey, 2015) also consistently show:

• The perpetrators of harassment, assault, and sexual violence against trans people are overwhelmingly cisgender men.

• In intimate partner violence, trans people are disproportionately victimised, again, most often by male partners.

Women are far more at risk of harassment or violence from males than from trans people.

Violence against women is overwhelmingly male-pattern:

• In the UK, 97% of sexual offences and 78% of violent crimes are committed by men.

• The vast majority of domestic abuse, sexual assault, and harassment is perpetrated by cisgender men.

Trans people, particularly trans women, make up a very small share of the population:

• Fewer than 0.5% of adults in the UK identify as transgender (ONS, 2021 Census).

• Statistically, this means very few offences overall are committed by trans people, and where they are, it’s still overwhelmingly by those assigned male at birth (i.e. trans women), not as a unique category of risk.

There is no evidence that trans women, as a group, pose a heightened threat to women:

• No peer-reviewed UK studies have shown trans women to be a significant source of risk to cisgender women in public or private settings.

• Where risk exists (e.g. in custodial settings), it is based on individual risk profiles, not group identity.

In short, transwomen are more at risk from men than women, and despite the law should in my opinion make their own call which loo to use based on that risk. The chance of encountering a trans person in a bathroom is infinitesimally small, the chance of them doing anything violent even smaller.

How ridiculous.

It's not akin to being racist to expect every man to stay out of women's single sex spaces because some men are violent.

Men are not women, not even if they identify as trans.

Cut to the chase, you just think men are more important than women. Every single point you make underlines that.

Otherwise, why wouldn't you advocate for third spaces. That solves the problem without impacting women's safety, dignity, boundaries. Only a person who doesn't care about those would take your position.

Because you know full well that creating third spaces everywhere is impossible. It’s just not pragmatic.

No I don't know that. I guess people said that about women's spaces once upon a time, but they fought and changed things. Go and advocate for change for your cause instead of supporting TW taking things that don't belong to them.

So men go in the men's.

Easy.

And transpeople make their own call depending on circumstances. In the real world. The messy, real world.

No, the law is very very clear that men should stay out of women's spaces. Disregarding that makes them predatory men.