To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

There is a male person of around that age with a transgender identity taking photos in of himself in male toilets and posting them on twitter. He is up to 1000 now. He has been doing this to show other male people with transgender identities that if he can be safe in there, then it is very likely that any other male person with a transgender identity will be safe in male single sex spaces.

Maybe you should assure your male friend that they will be safe in the male toilets.

Have you asked them "why" and "who" they are afraid of?
Have you asked them "who" they blame for the current situation?
Because as they have been transitioned for so long I would hope that they recognise that its the current breed of trans and TRA that have caused these issues for them.

Here is the “vulnerable tiny minority” making threats that women should be afraid of them.

https://x.com/gerrykeogh_/status/1926622168000983489?s=46

Here is another male person standing with a police officer in a photo frame with a sign that also says women should be afraid. And that police officer is supporting that sentiment.

https://x.com/gerrykeogh_/status/1926652333565358394?s=46

But apparently, female people need to allow these threatening male people access to the spaces we need to be female only.

It’s common sense for people who are vulnerable and need to protect themselves.

And what about little girls? They are vulnerable and were being put at risk by males in female spaces. They are unable to protect themselves so it's common sense that they need to be protected over adult males.

In terms of sex offenders in prison trans indentifying males are hugely over represented. In the past 10 years more trans people have been convicted of murder than have been victims of murder (all murderers and victims have been trans identifying males).

There’s no such thing as ‘cis’. There’s female and male.

Why are you so keen to let males use places designated as single sex female places? Seems odd to me.

You’re cherry picking your stats here. Even the MOJ say they don’t have accurate figures of how many males claiming to be female are incarcerated in the female prison estate - because they’re not allowed to ask!
Why do you think the now infamous rapist Bryson suddenly claimed to be female AFTER he was arrested for rape? Could it be that he knew he’d get easy access to female prisoners, and escape the harm sex offenders face in the male prison estate?

Your friend is as vulnerable in a male toilet as any 70 year old man, your friend's transition has not diminished their male strength. So they are no more vulnerable than any man the same age and are as much as a target as for example a camp gay man.

Yes Kathleen Riot, I think I posted a link upthread.

See also Fionne Orlander, who is I would say is a quite slight and very pretty transwoman, who has written several times about never having any issues in men's spaces. Fionne says the most that happens is a man will clock Fionne and double check the sign on the door, and Fionne will say 'yeah it's the men's I'm a bloke ' and everyone will go on with their day. Or I think once Fionne was told 'well you're a very pretty bloke!'

All these apparently terrified transwomen should try listening to the transwomen who've been respecting women's spaces for years and had no issues, instead of listening to the TRAs would want them to feel scared in order to bolster those TRAs preferred behaviour, which is scaring and intimidating women.

Thank you Namey.

And also people like Miranda Yardley who is also someone who has set an example of a male person with a transgender identity who uses male toilets.

And there are always posters on AIBU threads telling us that their lovely male transgender friends as male people use the male toilets.

I think sadmillennial should reassure their friend that male people with transgender identities are using male toilets without incident despite the constant declaration from others that they can’t because of their own fears.

It's really simple.... I think we need to stop calling transwomen transwomen.... this is what enables them to justify being in the women's

As soon as we say is it okay to have men in the women's loos, the whole perception changes....

And ps I agree - they are as safe in the men's as others are... and agree most men's loos can be quite intimidating for young boys.... It is a rite of passage, try it, get over the fear and it becomes normal... but perhaps chose which ones you go to (ie be aware - which is something women have been forever!)

@LucyMonth

First - those stats in your article are 6 years old.

Second - how many men were sexually assaulted by other men in prison?

This is EXACTLY why males need to be in their own prison estate. They can be kept safe in segregation or whatever British prisons call it, NOT by putting males in with women.

What's your comment on literal convicted multiple rapist Karen White being housed with women? Do you seriously think that women should be out at risk to mitigate the risk to him, a - let me repeat - convicted multiple rapist?

It honestly astounds me that someone can post that and not use a single ounce of critical thinking about it.

I have noticed that there are numerous pundits on social media who are now saying that they will no longer use the term transwoman now, not even with the space. Academics, authors and a large number of women’s rights campaigners. I stopped using the term years ago when I realised that if I used it, my posts were not as accurate or precise as I wanted. I do use it rarely now, often if I have to make a particular point.

They have their personal reasons but usually it revolves around the fact that they acknowledge that any mention of the word woman in relation to a male person causes confusion in the message.

I agree that we need to use accurate language. We still seem to be deleted for saying someone is a man sometimes. So I stick with ‘male people’ because I got tired of having to retype out deleted posts. But there is a benefit to using male people and female people too. Because I find myself not having to type out ‘women, girls and women with transgender identities’ to ensure people understand I also include all female people. Cumbersome, you betcha.

However, there is nothing quite like seeing the difference while some people are still up for playing linguistic games like “yes, I see we agree that women should be in female single sex toilets and not ‘men’. Transwomen are not ‘men’.” Whereas, persisting in saying all male people need to be excluded above the age of a child needing care is clear and stops the fuckwittery.

And what is also becoming apparent is that there are those who are still trying desperately to remain ‘kind’ and what they consider ‘moderate’. And those who then describe why they are moderate are usually those who personally will arbitrate who is and who isn’t ‘trans’ using their own personal criteria. Which is actually the opposite of kind when you see it posted.

It is also usually not moderate either. It will either be what feminists have been campaigning for more than a decade for. Or it still allows male people into female single sex spaces based on that person’s personally developed criteria that ignores the needs of female people and centres a special group of male people.

This is for @HangryLikeTheHulk by the way.

This was, I believe yesterday or Saturday in London. And this is just one of the topless protests that the group you categorise as ‘tiny’ and ‘vulnerable’ have done over the past month.

Oh… and don’t let us forget the pissing protests that have also happened. Of course, it wasn’t female people pissing in the streets in protest. It never is. It is that “tiny, vulnerable group” who are protesting.

Imagine that. Imagine showing the public just how little you understand boundaries by pissing in public, and protesting topless (and not getting arrested as a female person might if they were topless) to convince women and girls that those very people should be in female single sex spaces!

Is there really plenty of evidence for this? Surely people aren't routinely attacked in men's toilets, vast majority of people are just going in to piss.

I do know a trans identifying man, my DD’s flatmate who was beaten up in a nightclub, albeit in the roughest part of Kent. My DD claimed that was why he had to use women’s toilets. She also complained about him being ‘misgendered’ when he was out in a dress and woman-face and wearing fake boobs in an Indian restaurant where the waiter was calling him ‘sir’. He is a great hulking lump of a man.

I do think some trans are exhibitionists and deliberately try and provoke a reaction. Not that that is an excuse for violence.

Then again as a woman I carry out an automatic risk assessment for everything I do ☹️

You’d think so wouldn’t you.

If men are routinely attacking more vulnerable men in the men's toilets - regardless of what kind of vulnerability we're talking about here - why aren't we tackling this?

This is appalling. Why all the focus on TERFs when this terrible behaviour is coming from a completely different group?

You linked to a post showing somebody who is transphobic infiltrating pride with a fake sign in an attempt to entrap police officers into posing with their fake sign.

That sign is not created by or used by trans people. Yet you’re so willing to believe that transgender people are evil that you put all reason aside and take it at face value.

Trans people exist and face far more difficulties, prejudice and violence than the average woman.

Would love to see the evidence for this @HangryLikeTheHulk

"Trans people exist and face far more difficulties, prejudice and violence than the average woman."

And UK evidence please this time.

Trans people ... face far more difficulties, prejudice and violence than the average woman.

There is zero evidence for this. You continually stating it doesn't make it true.

Regardiess, if transpeople feel they need third spaces, then by all means campaign for that. There is no justification for them accessing women's spaces, which are needed for women's safety and dignity.

Crime Victimisation Rates
According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), in the year ending March 2020, 28% of transgender people in England and Wales reported experiencing crime, compared to 14% of cisgender individuals.

Hate Crimes
Transgender people are disproportionately targeted in hate crimes. In the year ending March 2023, police in England and Wales recorded 4,732 hate crimes motivated by transgender identity, marking an 11% increase from the previous year and the highest number since records began. This rise contrasts with a decrease in hate crimes based on race and sexual orientation during the same period.

Domestic Abuse
Research indicates that 19% of transgender individuals in the UK have experienced domestic abuse, compared to 7.9% of cisgender women.

It would be interesting to know how many women on this thread have ever felt threatened or been assaulted by a transwoman in a public loo and how many have even noticed who is trans and who isn't. Like someone else said so much hatred towards such a tiny minority.

Under 'hate crimes' here we are including things like 'misgendering', which is not actually a crime, so these stats are basically nonsense.

Now compare the murder/rape rates of women versus 'transwomen' and we'll see who is truly vulnerable.