To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

If men face significant risks from other men, in men's spaces, why do you expect women to solve that problem?

You think women should be pressed into service as shields for these men?

You can get lost with that idea 🙄

This.

HangryLikeTheHulk · Today 19:55

It’s about letting a vulnerable tiny minority most people will never even encounter making choices that reduce the significant risks they face.

That's rubbish, there are 7 I recognise in my moderate sized town. Two are quite aggressive and confrontational in public, God knows what they're like in enclosed spaces.

It certainly feels like this. Selfish and ignorant of anyone but themselves. Men in dresses more vulnerable than women and children. Bollocks they are.

Can you explain why this tiny minority is so important that they must be allowed to compromise the rights, safety and dignity of half the population?

There are about 200 times as many women as there are trans women.

Saying that one male person is more important than 200 female people is quite the hot take. I'm not sure even the Taliban say that out loud.

I know - trans women have totally got themselves hyped up about their correct sex bathrooms - they should defo not do so, it is just so sad. Hopefully their fellow men can go out of their way to make these trans identified men feel safe in male bathrooms.

What the ACTUAL

I've seen lots of trans women challenged on the street by other men, who almost always get just as bolshy back. I've never seen one turn away, tearful, try to placate the man or just try to get away, like I'm pretty sure a woman would.

Of course that's just anecdata, bit considering there's plenty of videos of TW in women's loos with their bits out, and plenty that they don't like people seeing, of them spitting obscenities at women (or men) who dare disagree it's strange none of the evidence that would back them up seems to be available.

I admit I also find it confusing that 0.55% of the population (let's pretend it's that much) that are male basically feel they should be allowed to make a personal risk assessment and use female facilities, as opposed to 51% of the population who have a long a unfortunately well-proven risk assessment of Life that males should be in their own spaces. But that 51% can be dismissed in favour of being nice.

Is this opinion based on a) a belief that trans people's rights taken precedence over everyone else's; b) complete ignorance of what has just happened in the Supreme Court; or (most likely) c) both of the above?

It’s common sense for people who are vulnerable and need to protect themselves.

Men aren't vulnerable love

i feel like everyone on this thread assumes that all trans women are aged 20-40? My friend and colleague has lived as a trans woman for 30+ years and is now in her early 70s. She transitioned in middle age and is over 6ft so she doesnt "pass" and that has obvs been an issue throughout her life
For anyone here to expect her to be more comfortable than me, a 40 year old cis woman, in challenging aggressive men is ridiculous. The bold claims that all trans women are "bolshy" is just ridiculous. She is afraid, and im afraid for her.

Tell “her” to carry pepper spray and stay out of the women’s loo

So you're more concerned about a six foot tall man in the presence of other men than a woman? Give me strength.

But wouldn’t common sense be to keep males out of women’s spaces as women are vulnerable and need to protect themselves

That's exactly why women want to protect themselves by keeping all men out of our single sex spaces, love.

Well that's a new one.

Why is their age relevant?

I think you are onto something here. The system we need:

i) doesn’t lead to suspicion that people are in the opposite sex loo,
ii) each individual can decide for themselves if they feel fine with having males in the women’s loo
iii) to make ii workable, that must mean no males in public women’s loos or we undermine the consent principle in ii. (Ie you may feel fine for males to be in with your granddaughters, but the workable principle can’t be what each individual’s grandmother agrees to)
iv) no genital inspections.

This, luckily for you, has just been clarified as the law of the land.

Why is he afraid? He’s a 6ft bloke. Maybe be more concerned about all the women he’s intimidated and made uncomfortable?

Lots of people are afraid of what they don't know. After 30 years of using women's spaces this person doesn't know what it is like to use men's spaces. That doesn't mean men's spaces will be unsafe.

@HangryLikeTheHulk It’s common sense for people who are vulnerable and need to protect themselves.

Is it though? There are many occasions where some men may be afraid of others. I’m not seeing yet why that means they use the women’s space. Can you explain that step a bit further please?

Ooh it’ll be an adventure for him! I mean surely it would be better to go somewhere with people like him (males), rather than going into women’s spaces and being reminded every time that he will never be a woman. It will probably be better for his mental health

Some people construct an entirely false narrative about themselves, about how they are perceived, and about other people's behaviour towards them, and they tell themselves this story so many times that they actually believe it, even if there is no truth in it.

I had this epiphany last night in relation to a personal matter. Nothing to do with trans, but someone in the family who has caused an enormous amount of harm to the whole family with her childish and selfish behaviour is genuinely convinced that we have insulted her and should apologise. Some people really do believe that up is down and black is white.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom and that is not helped by all the people pandering to him and telling him he’s “totally a woman”. If he really was a woman he wouldn’t need to be told. No one comes up to me and tells me “you’re so a woman”. Maybe I’m doing womanning wrong. Maybe I need to wear more spinny skirts, knee socks and chokers….

No. Allowing a male person to access a female single sex space because you, personally, deem them the priority above the female people who need the space to be female only is a misogynist decision.

If a ”vulnerable tiny minority” need separate spaces for themselves, that is what they need to be working on, and should have been working on for over 25 years. Not using female people as support humans and accessing spaces they should not be in.

And I don’t know what part of the world you live in, but I regularly encounter male people with transgender identities just walking around town in my area. They are not this rare, unencountered group of people that you want people to believe they are in my suburban area.

If your repeated assertions that they are a “vulnerable tiny minority” is based on your own personal living situation, which it seems to be, perhaps you should stop making such generalisations.