To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

[Evedence]

I feel, as a FWR lurker, that I would have seen linked articles to bank up the fact that trans identifying men aren't safe in men's loos, and therefore that's the rational why women should budge up and accept trans identifying men in their spaces.

I'm pretty sure with a quick Google I could fund evident that trans identity men have made women's spaces unsafe (Kate delowski? The one who worked for a charity and made a masturbation video).

So AIBU to wonder what hard evidence there is?

The tippety tippiest part of a very huge iceberg. Sadly. We have made huge progress in the last year or so though.

At least the govt recently changed the rules so if a man is convicted of sex offences against women he has to go in the male prison. No word on moving the existing male rapists or paedophiles and obviously if a man is convicted of violent or sexual offences against men (afaik, I always hope I’m wrong on that but it’s rare) they can go in a women’s prison but we can be thankful for small mercies.

I just think if that poor 60 year old lady Postmistress wrongly convicted of fraud in the PO scandal and wonder if she was placed in a prison with one of these men ruling the roost. She would be justified in feeling utterly victimised by the state.

The problem isn’t necessarily trans women, it’s that it’s impossible to tell the difference between a trans woman who means no harm and a man who is taking advantage of trans rights to abuse women. I think trans activists know this and are avoiding addressing this point by framing the argument as if we believe trans women are all predators, which is disingenuous.

I don’t know why toilets have become the main focus either, for me the biggest issue is changing rooms where women and girls are partially clothed or naked. Imagine getting undressed at the gym and a man walks in, you challenge him and are told you’re in the wrong and are transphobic because he’s actually a woman. For me this scenario is much more concerning than sharing toilets.

Sometimes the problem is trans women though. They are no less dangerous than other men.

But you're right in the sense that you can't allow trans women access to women's spaces whilst keeping other men out. There's no way to tell the difference between the two.

“it’s impossible to tell the difference between a trans woman who means no harm”

How about this:

it’s impossible to tell the difference between a transwoman who means no harm and one who does. Just as it is impossible to tell the difference between any male person who means harm and one who doesn’t.

Hence ALL male people should be excluded from any female single sex provision.

The problem is ALL male people.

No exceptions. And no denying that there are some male people with transgender identities who cannot respect female people. Despite the very large amounts of evidence that exists where those very male people with transgender identities do intend to cause harm to female people.

That also removes the need for any one judging whether toilets are more important or changing rooms.

Of course you did,you just don't like the reply.

I didn't understand it. Care to translate?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Today 11:20

Did anyone understand a word of this?

I sort of get the impression that they are onside, but have had a huge misunderstanding...

Do you really want to use Serrano as an example of a rational, non fetishised TW? Maybe do some research first?

No, I literally didn't. It was complete gibberish.

There are plenty of examples of male people with transgender identities who don’t ‘dress as Barbie’ which was the point the pp was making. But I cannot think of one that had not done or said anything that was misogynist. Often fetishising ‘womanhood’ and women and them being a woman.

But I look forward as to why female people should accept any male person over the age of a child in need of care into their single sex spaces regardless of how they dress.

Men (trans women) in a men's toilet is their correct place. It's women who are at risk if trans women (men) use their toilets.

No, it's about what's safer for 51% of the population. Women.

Yes that is true, I just think that it’s common for TRAs to argue that we assume all trans women are predators and that’s why we don’t want to share spaces with them, which then makes it easy to label us all as transphobic bigots and dismiss our concerns.

The problem is that TW are men, and men cannot be trusted.

I do agree with you completely, I just see it framed a lot that those who disagree with TW in female spaces are doing so because we believe TW are all predators or perverts, when I think the vast majority of us just don’t want men in our spaces for very legitimate reasons, whether they self identify as women or not makes no difference as they are still men.

Yes. Many extreme transgender activists, those that prioritise gender over sex, do use that catastrophising tactic that is also all or nothing. It is a fallacious tactic and very dishonest.

I use the term extreme as to separate them from transgender activists that are rightfully advocating for their rights considering other groups needs when there is a conflict.

The easiest way to explain it though is to point out that just as we don’t believe all men are abusive or rapists, but we still exclude them from all female single sex spaces. So too we should continue to exclude all male people because they still are male ( and we need dignity and privacy from all male people too).

All those extreme activists have is emotionally manipulative tactics. There is no evidence to support them with their points.

They put their money on the wrong horse - they should have spent the last 10 years campaigning for a third space but instead they found the third space idea to be insulting because it would mean they'd have to admit they weren't women.

No, sorry, I didn’t understand it either. Could you rephrase please?

😂😂😂
Are you high?

All about the men again!

And women's consent?

Totally irrelevant it seems 🙄

Well exactly, so now go tell transwomen to stop being so bigoted about the 'risk' of having to uses the mens toilets.

Because they are for disabled people?

It’s about letting a vulnerable tiny minority most people will never even encounter making choices that reduce the significant risks they face.

They're not a vulnerable tiny minority, they're not at anything like the risk that women are, and they've managed to get public bodies and private businesses to break the law for over 10 years.

https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

But gay men are a vulnerable minority also. Are you suggesting they should use women’s spaces? If not, why not?