Page 34 | To think Starmer is utterly reprehensible

Thegreyhound · 2025-05-12T19:31:54+00:00

I know everyone will disagree, that’s ok- But I just have to say that Starmer today seems to have sunk lower than I ever believed he would with his incendiary ‘island of strangers’ and ‘incalculable damage’ rhetoric. I find it particularly shocking because he has calculated this and decided it’s worth it to throw immigrants under the bus and essentially give all the ground in the debate to Farage, Tommy Robinson and Enoch Powell types. Policy can be altered without making statements that are designed to impact race relations and make life even more difficult for people who are just trying to get along and make a living here. Starmer is vile. This country does indeed feel like an island of strangers these days but the strangers are not the immigrants :(

User46576 · 13/05/2025 12:19

KT1113 · 13/05/2025 12:07

I wouldn't say Christianity is the most tolerant of religions and Britain certainly doesn't seem to have a culture of tolerance at the moment, so that aside, I'm absolutely not being disingenuous.

It's fine to say - other cultures don't fit well with my ideas/beliefs of what British culture is. But you absolutely can't say with a straight face 'other cultures don't share our values of tolerance for other people's beliefs, their right to hold them and express them.'

If you have tolerance for someone's beliefs, it doesn't have to be fundamentally compatible with yours.

Show quote history

I’m not a Christian but Christianity especially the Church of England type is incredibly tolerant compared to religions like Islam. Visit Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and compare to the uk.

ERthree · 13/05/2025 12:19

The man has always been a twunt. Before the election he was bad enough but since then he has excelled at showing us how much of a twunt he really is. Our pensioners are told to freeze whilst illegal immigrants get to stay toasty and warm in the hotels WE pay for at a rate of £5m a day.

CantStopMoving · 13/05/2025 12:20

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:09

Of course. The question is Why aren’t they taking these jobs?

There’s a history of huge vacancies in the Social care industry and a history of unemployment. There are jobs available…….why?! do you think

Show quote history

Because they don’t pay enough. As I said before .

Sabire9 · 13/05/2025 12:21

Rainbow1901 · 13/05/2025 12:15

It's more likely that the payments from the benefits system are too high. If benefits were set at a lower threshold then working will pay. As it is now - there are too many bonuses for being on benefits as you can often add in housing benefit, free prescriptions and a host of other benefits which often means in their eyes that working does not pay.

Maybe we should adopt something that other countries employ which is that benefits can only last a finite amount of time.
Or maybe there are plenty of people who work for NMW and still pay their way so should we tax benefits too?
I have no idea but something needs to change but it seems daft to bring in immigrants to do jobs that citizens in the country are capable of doing and get them off their reliance on the state to provide everything.

Show quote history

"It's more likely that the payments from the benefits system are too high. If benefits were set at a lower threshold then working will pay. As it is now - there are too many bonuses for being on benefits as you can often add in housing benefit, free prescriptions and a host of other benefits which often means in their eyes that working does not pay."

If you reduce housing benefit and stop people on benefit from having free prescriptions we'll see a big surge in homelessness, and increased deaths among the most vulnerable sectors of the population. It will put huge pressure on the NHS. You're talking about reducing the income of the poorest people in the UK who are already living in poverty.

QueenQueef25 · 13/05/2025 12:22

TheFastTraybake · 13/05/2025 11:53

This is why I say comparatively. Nobody is advocating for towers in the sky.

Show quote history

But people who burry their heads in the sand will wake up to skyline being blocked. the shite housing is going up bc of this issue.

The destruction of acient pastures and skyline in favor of Minecraft looking housing units and uber eats trash Is unforgivable

Bumpitybumper · 13/05/2025 12:22

KT1113 · 13/05/2025 12:07

I wouldn't say Christianity is the most tolerant of religions and Britain certainly doesn't seem to have a culture of tolerance at the moment, so that aside, I'm absolutely not being disingenuous.

It's fine to say - other cultures don't fit well with my ideas/beliefs of what British culture is. But you absolutely can't say with a straight face 'other cultures don't share our values of tolerance for other people's beliefs, their right to hold them and express them.'

If you have tolerance for someone's beliefs, it doesn't have to be fundamentally compatible with yours.

Show quote history

British culture is rooted in Christianity, a religion that does facilitate some degree of tolerance. Over time we have moved away from some of the more intolerant aspects of Christianity and we are now undoubtedly one of the more tolerant countries in the world. Of course we aren't completely tolerant but generally there is a freedom of religion and ability to live in culturally different ways.

Some cultures and religions simply don't share our tolerance for other people's beliefs, their right to hold them and express them. I find it astonishing that you believe this isn't true when it is clear to see in countries all around the world.

My point is that the concept of tolerance is almost a key part of a belief system in itself . Some people fundamentally believe that tolerance is essential and important, others simply can't condone or accept behaviour or ways of living that they view to be morally or religiously wrong. These two belief systems are fundamentally incompatible when it comes to law making and people living cohesively together.

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:22

CantStopMoving · 13/05/2025 12:20

Because they don’t pay enough. As I said before .

Show quote history

So that’s where we start.
Increase the pay !

BrightonEarlyOneSummerMorning · 13/05/2025 12:22

I think you are well meaning but unfortunately this lack of awareness sums up the problem we have today.

With on one hand, the people who only occasionally dip into coexisting with different cultures, who based on their rare glimpses of difference on casual jaunts into the nearest town, can't imagine what the problem would be.

And on the other hand, people who live right in the middle of "multicultural" areas who have extremely basic principles of respect tested on their daily run of the gauntlet to the corner shop.

Then on the fringes you have a minority of people with zero exposure to immigration being anti-immigration, and people with a lot of exposure to it supporting it.

PiggyPigalle · 13/05/2025 12:23

Whatafustercluck · 13/05/2025 11:24

I live in a high immigration area. My city is a wonderful, vibrant, welcoming one which has welcomed immigrants for decades from Pakistan, India, Italy, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and many more. There have been no riots, communities co-exist well. They all speak English fluently and are now raising their children here, integrating well with their peers.

I have also seen the other side of immigration, notably modern slavery. People living in dire conditions, exploited by unscrupulous landlords.

It is quite possible to simultaneously believe in the many benefits immigrants bring to the country, as well as believe that uncontrolled immigration and exploitation of vulnerable people cannot continue. I am sorry for those seeking refuge and believe the majority of them are genuine cases. But allowing people to profit from their misery by not attempting to address it is not the answer either.

I think Starmer is right to try to tackle the issue, otherwise the far right will continue to take further hold in this country. Yes, it may well seem that he's pandering to Reform, but the longer game is preventing that ideology take a firmer foothold - and we've seen that Reform are exceptionally good at sewing discord and division. What I do question, though, is whether Starmer is going about it the right way or is simply taking the easy pickings that won't make a real difference. Time will tell i suppose, and i do think we need to remember that a parliamentary term is 5 years, not 10 months.

Edited

To say, "They all speak English fluently" is an impossibility.
If it were true, there wouldn't be special provisions made in schools. Road signs would be in English only. Interpreters wouldn't be needed in hospitals etc. They certainly wouldn't need the help of the local Imam to vote either.

Many immigrants especially the elderly, don't speak a word of English. You wouldn't know them, because the men don't speak to you and the women stay in the house.

You should name this Utopian city, so it can be be used as an example for all others to follow.

BrightonEarlyOneSummerMorning · 13/05/2025 12:24

My post just above is in response to @KT1113

thenoisiesttermagant · 13/05/2025 12:24

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:09

Of course. The question is Why aren’t they taking these jobs?

There’s a history of huge vacancies in the Social care industry and a history of unemployment. There are jobs available…….why?! do you think

Show quote history

Because they don't pay well enough for the bloody hard work they're expected to do, there isn't a proper career structure nor proper training nor social recognition of the job (it's seen as min wage shit work) and part of the reason why they don't pay is that employers can pay immigrants minimum wage. Also immigrants will not join a union or rock the boat for better conditions or whistleblow on safeguarding or profiteering as they probably rightly believe any of these things could jeopardise their attempts to gain legal residency / citizenship. So perfect employees really for immoral employers.

Care workers should have proper training, be well paid, it should be a career not a min wage job with a rotation of staff. But then there would be less profit for the already rich shareholders.

I have a relative with dementia who is paying 5k of their own money (which will run out fairly soon) per month for care in a home that's shabby with a high turnover of about half the staff. Many of the workers do not speak English very well, which is an issue for sufferers from dementia who already struggle to communicate (cue the accusations of racism for daring to say that people doing a job caring for dementia suffers should be able to communicate with them...). Fortunately the home is very well run with a brilliant manager and those staff who do have good English are able to manage the issues well. However that's not the case for all, I have been in care homes where they are obviously really struggling and home care companies are another issue too.

There seems to be absolutely no vetting to see if people applying for these jobs are suitable either. One carer who my family has known for over 30 years told me that for some home care companies the 'training' is a 1 hour video. There have been many, many cases of abuse of people receiving 'carers' in their homes - both financial, violence and sexual violence. All these issues are linked.
The problem is that the government consists of exactly the people profiting from this human suffering - both the patients in care homes and the staff to be honest - it's not an easy job to do without adequate training and support and the pay is shit.

Serpentstooth · 13/05/2025 12:26

Yes, it's disturbing from a Labour Leader yet things are desperate. You cannot have a clean fight with a dirty bastard as millions of Americans are finding out. We cannot have an Anglo-Trump here, it's unthinkable. As it was for those millions of Americans who believed their constitution was their protection against tyranny. Yet, there he is. Labour needs those Reform votes. Or we're fucked,

Bumpitybumper · 13/05/2025 12:26

User46576 · 13/05/2025 12:19

I’m not a Christian but Christianity especially the Church of England type is incredibly tolerant compared to religions like Islam. Visit Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and compare to the uk.

Show quote history

Exactly. I am an atheist but I think it's a dangerous myth to believe that all religions and cultures have the same level of tolerance built into them. They are fundamentally very different and this manifests in the cultures and countries that adopt them. It does everyone a disservice to not acknowledge this.

MrsSkylerWhite · 13/05/2025 12:26

Booksaresick · 12/05/2025 21:39

Im a migrant and I agree with him

Why?

CantStopMoving · 13/05/2025 12:27

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:22

So that’s where we start.
Increase the pay !

Show quote history

Yes exactly but it we might have to accept that the government has to subsidise these roles to make them affordable. That might mean higher taxes- it is a complex cycle

Sabire9 · 13/05/2025 12:27

@Feetinthegrass

"No, you don’t get to come here and tell us to cover up, be modest, be subservient to men etc."

Who's told you to do this?

There are 4 mosques within walking distance of my home. Nobody has ever told me to cover up or be subservient to men. Or anyone else as far as I can see. Our local high street is swarming with people wearing short shorts today, as well as women in hijab. Nobody's telling anyone what they should wear or how they should behave towards other people.
"The most awful being the demand for the erasure of Christmas because it’s ‘unfair’."

This isn't happening. Except in the minds of Daily Mail readers

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:28

thenoisiesttermagant · 13/05/2025 12:24

Because they don't pay well enough for the bloody hard work they're expected to do, there isn't a proper career structure nor proper training nor social recognition of the job (it's seen as min wage shit work) and part of the reason why they don't pay is that employers can pay immigrants minimum wage. Also immigrants will not join a union or rock the boat for better conditions or whistleblow on safeguarding or profiteering as they probably rightly believe any of these things could jeopardise their attempts to gain legal residency / citizenship. So perfect employees really for immoral employers.

Care workers should have proper training, be well paid, it should be a career not a min wage job with a rotation of staff. But then there would be less profit for the already rich shareholders.

I have a relative with dementia who is paying 5k of their own money (which will run out fairly soon) per month for care in a home that's shabby with a high turnover of about half the staff. Many of the workers do not speak English very well, which is an issue for sufferers from dementia who already struggle to communicate (cue the accusations of racism for daring to say that people doing a job caring for dementia suffers should be able to communicate with them...). Fortunately the home is very well run with a brilliant manager and those staff who do have good English are able to manage the issues well. However that's not the case for all, I have been in care homes where they are obviously really struggling and home care companies are another issue too.

There seems to be absolutely no vetting to see if people applying for these jobs are suitable either. One carer who my family has known for over 30 years told me that for some home care companies the 'training' is a 1 hour video. There have been many, many cases of abuse of people receiving 'carers' in their homes - both financial, violence and sexual violence. All these issues are linked.
The problem is that the government consists of exactly the people profiting from this human suffering - both the patients in care homes and the staff to be honest - it's not an easy job to do without adequate training and support and the pay is shit.

Show quote history

So
Increase the pay
Offer proper training
Make it a career move

This is what we need to do.
and tax payers need to face up to paying for that.

BeardofHagrid · 13/05/2025 12:28

So you want vulnerable people to come here from third world countries and work like slaves doing jobs British people won’t do on a grey, dank, miserable island?

That’s true racism. Nice.

Winter2020 · 13/05/2025 12:28

Maddy70 · 12/05/2025 23:57

While I do really appreciate how effective he is on the global stage , plus trade deals etc and the improvements he's made to working conditions, the NHS etc over the short time he's been pm. I honestly cannot fathom why it's a good idea to cull the foreign care workers coming to the UK.

Because people do not come to the UK to work in care. They work in care in order to come to the UK.

When these people no longer need a sponsor to remain they won't be able to leave care quick enough for higher paid/more prestigious work. They have no intention of their children working in care. These people will also one day need aged care themselves, as well as needing schools, hospitals and housing.

Getting care workers from abroad is building a giant pyramid scheme where we need to bring in ever more workers. Trying to staff social care with workers from abroad is like trying to fill a bucket full of holes.

So many people seem to think we need "special" people who want to work in care while objecting to paying them more than a couple of pence over minimum wage.

Care work is generally seen as less pleasant than hospitality and retail and if you want to staff it then the wages need to refect this.

Employers also need to get on board with the fact that this can be a great job for parents but some people might need all mornings or all evenings to fit in with their partnea's work and their childcare needs. As a 24 hour service this shouldn't be impossible. If it is so difficult to find staff how are services still getting away with expecting full availability over 7 days?

TheFastTraybake · 13/05/2025 12:30

Rainbow1901 · 13/05/2025 12:15

It's more likely that the payments from the benefits system are too high. If benefits were set at a lower threshold then working will pay. As it is now - there are too many bonuses for being on benefits as you can often add in housing benefit, free prescriptions and a host of other benefits which often means in their eyes that working does not pay.

Maybe we should adopt something that other countries employ which is that benefits can only last a finite amount of time.
Or maybe there are plenty of people who work for NMW and still pay their way so should we tax benefits too?
I have no idea but something needs to change but it seems daft to bring in immigrants to do jobs that citizens in the country are capable of doing and get them off their reliance on the state to provide everything.

Show quote history

I have no idea

This is true. You don't. A quick Google would tell you that benefit levels for the average person are incredibly low, well below what's needed to pay for basic essentials.

DrPrunesqualer · 13/05/2025 12:30

CantStopMoving · 13/05/2025 12:27

Yes exactly but it we might have to accept that the government has to subsidise these roles to make them affordable. That might mean higher taxes- it is a complex cycle

Show quote history

Yes agree
Our council taxes pay for Adult social care so they would have to rise
Or
We reduce how many people receive adult social care

Thats partly being looked at by labour already

Feetinthegrass · 13/05/2025 12:30

Sabire9 · 13/05/2025 12:27

@Feetinthegrass

"No, you don’t get to come here and tell us to cover up, be modest, be subservient to men etc."

Who's told you to do this?

There are 4 mosques within walking distance of my home. Nobody has ever told me to cover up or be subservient to men. Or anyone else as far as I can see. Our local high street is swarming with people wearing short shorts today, as well as women in hijab. Nobody's telling anyone what they should wear or how they should behave towards other people.
"The most awful being the demand for the erasure of Christmas because it’s ‘unfair’."

This isn't happening. Except in the minds of Daily Mail readers

It happened in the queue in Briminhgham as we lined up. Are you actually telling people these things didn’t happen??! That is very insulting. You were not there. It was a summers day and they were speaking openly about us because we were wearing shorts as we waited (chocolate factory) You have some cheek coming on here saying otherwise. This stuff absolutely does happen. We had a similar experience about a year ago at Birmingham airport.

indianques · 13/05/2025 12:30

thenoisiesttermagant · 13/05/2025 12:24

Because they don't pay well enough for the bloody hard work they're expected to do, there isn't a proper career structure nor proper training nor social recognition of the job (it's seen as min wage shit work) and part of the reason why they don't pay is that employers can pay immigrants minimum wage. Also immigrants will not join a union or rock the boat for better conditions or whistleblow on safeguarding or profiteering as they probably rightly believe any of these things could jeopardise their attempts to gain legal residency / citizenship. So perfect employees really for immoral employers.

Care workers should have proper training, be well paid, it should be a career not a min wage job with a rotation of staff. But then there would be less profit for the already rich shareholders.

I have a relative with dementia who is paying 5k of their own money (which will run out fairly soon) per month for care in a home that's shabby with a high turnover of about half the staff. Many of the workers do not speak English very well, which is an issue for sufferers from dementia who already struggle to communicate (cue the accusations of racism for daring to say that people doing a job caring for dementia suffers should be able to communicate with them...). Fortunately the home is very well run with a brilliant manager and those staff who do have good English are able to manage the issues well. However that's not the case for all, I have been in care homes where they are obviously really struggling and home care companies are another issue too.

There seems to be absolutely no vetting to see if people applying for these jobs are suitable either. One carer who my family has known for over 30 years told me that for some home care companies the 'training' is a 1 hour video. There have been many, many cases of abuse of people receiving 'carers' in their homes - both financial, violence and sexual violence. All these issues are linked.
The problem is that the government consists of exactly the people profiting from this human suffering - both the patients in care homes and the staff to be honest - it's not an easy job to do without adequate training and support and the pay is shit.

Show quote history

My Dad has carers visit him 4 times a day. They are all foreign. They are nice enough, but the training is dire. They don't know how to cook properly (last week he was given an uncooked bacon sandwich). He finds it really frustrating. But at least they are working!

Sabire9 · 13/05/2025 12:31

BrightonEarlyOneSummerMorning · 13/05/2025 12:22

I think you are well meaning but unfortunately this lack of awareness sums up the problem we have today.

With on one hand, the people who only occasionally dip into coexisting with different cultures, who based on their rare glimpses of difference on casual jaunts into the nearest town, can't imagine what the problem would be.

And on the other hand, people who live right in the middle of "multicultural" areas who have extremely basic principles of respect tested on their daily run of the gauntlet to the corner shop.

Then on the fringes you have a minority of people with zero exposure to immigration being anti-immigration, and people with a lot of exposure to it supporting it.

@BrightonEarlyOneSummerMorning
"And on the other hand, people who live right in the middle of "multicultural" areas who have extremely basic principles of respect tested on their daily run of the gauntlet to the corner shop."

I live right in the middle of a multicultural area. There were more (many more) children from immigrant families in my children's primary school than there were children from British born families.

What do you mean by 'running the gauntlet' when I go to the corner shop?

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 13/05/2025 12:32

TempestTost · 12/05/2025 21:25

Generally - I don't think he's vile. I don't think he is an amazing leader, or an idea man, or a visionary. And I think all governments now are in a very difficult position.

As far as immigration - no, I don't think he is throwing immigrants "under the bus". His fundamental duty of care is to citizens and permanent residents of the UK, and the economy and social fabric of the nation. People in other nations have governments with a similar duty of care to do what's best for the people there.

Immigration can have positive elements and there have always been some people who immigrate. But we don't live in a time where people drop a bunch of people off the boat and they need to make it or sink with no state support. You cannot have a social welfare state with unlimited immigration. It's not a viable model.

For the last 30 years or more all we have heard from big business and liberal political types is that immigration is a positive economically socially and economically. That is because easy movement of labour favours big business, the wealthy, and the professional middle classes. Working class people who objected to this and pointed out it certainly wasn't good for them were dismissed as bigots - a massive betrayal of them by the Labour Party.

And yet now we know they were right all along - even central banks and the WEF have acknowledged that immigration is not all equal, that it can cost the economy more than those workers generate, that it affects wages for the working classes, that it affects the housing and rental market and also contributes to housing problems - not to mention the draws on health care and education.

So no - I don't think the leader of the Labour Party, actually having some balls to stand up for left wing labour principles, is vile. Though it took him long enough to get there, that's for sure.

Seconded