What can labour do about immigration?

[CrispyEye]

Current poles showing Reform is way ahead of labour now. I’m so worried Reform will win the next general election if Labour don’t get a grip on this issue. And I say that as a Tory voter.

Realistically, what can Labour do, what should they be doing and do we think they will do it?

Many parts of the country are ignored by the Gov -I expect Cornwall was one of them if you get nothing from the present Gov then getting Reform will make no difference. Or if you have nearly every hotel full of immigrants like we have here )a tourist area -you couldn’t make it up) you might have something to gain from reform as you are getting nothing at present from the Gov.

Huh? I didn't say the ECHR I said the Human Rights Act - you do know they're two completely different things don't you? For your education the HRA was enshrined into law by Blair when I was around 30.

And yet when offered the choice between solidarity and capitalism-red-in-tooth-and-claw in the 1980s, enough of those working class voted for Thatcher to render Labour powerless to do anything. When the battle for the soul of the party emerged between "old" Labour and Blairism in the 1990s, the former was widely seen as anachronistic and the latter as the only way to keep enjoying the privatisation of council housing and the reduction of income tax rates. And when Corbyn finally gave one last whoopee to old Labour values in the 2010s he was derided for his international socialist sympathies toward Ireland and Palestine, and seen as a grave danger to all those nice people like the Queen and Boris Johnson that we must keeping doffing our caps to so they look after us.

I'm sick of people bleating about how the working class have been betrayed. They had the numbers, along with the progressive middle class, to sustain a civilized mixed economy for the common good if that's what they wanted. Instead people of all classes have drunk the neoliberal kool aid and hitched their wagon to individualism and distrust, jumping right into every trap set by the ruling class to divide them and blame their problems on somebody else. Benefit claimants. EU bureaucrats. The liberal elite. Immigrants. Blah blah fucking blah. Just as long as Johnson or Farage or the next snake oil salesman convinces you that you can be one of the winners. But the winners have already won and the race is over, you just didn't hear the whistle.

The thing about winners is that they losers. That's the part they don't tell you.

They need losers.

The internet has given loads economic migrants all over the world the ability to access information very easily on how to game the systems in various countries to get in and the people smuggling gangs have taken full advantage and made millions and millions out of this.
The law has to adapt to that practice. You cannot have thousands of young men arriving simply claiming, for example, that they are gay and face persecution in their home country, by virtue of being gay.
Qualifying the human rights act domestically need not translate to a curtailment of other human rights domestically or for genuine cases of asylum. And yes, the processing has to change.
Mass immigration is only going to get worse with climate change and there has to be international consensus on what is acceptable. It is also a very easy way for enemy states to overwhelm other countries by encouraging gangs surreptitiously.

@Araminta1003yes I agree. Plus SM trafficking itself. It’s billions worth and will get worse without change.

Also keeping them locked up with nothing to do in hotels is madness when lots of young men could be fruit picking and labouring on construction sites and it would be better for them to be able to do that.

Exactly, they are 1 step ahead and know exactly what to say to get to where they want to be. How do you prove or disprove someone is gay, or has mental health problems etc. It is far too easy to game the system and this country is far too naive and trusting of anyone with a sob story.

Getting 1 step ahead of them is the only way to stop it, look at the real reasons they want to come here specifically and stop those things, eg, free phone, hotel, benefits.

Every country should offer exactly the same package and treatment, then it would be less appealing. No hotel, tent or detention centres. No free healthcare apart from very basic emergency. Ideally processed off shore in detention centres or camps. No residendecy, no right to remain long term. Id cards and dna/fingerprints taken to prevent illegal work and crime. No free healthcare or education until have paid taxes for 5+ years.

Deport anyone who comes here and commits a crime, even shoplifting. No right to bring family over.

Those echo Chambers certainly extend to this forum. There's been quite a rude awakening for some; must be increasingly difficult to defend their party now. Easy when Tories were at the helm to do the weekly Tory bashing. Not so vocal now. There's one particular poster, whose absence is notable.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your points, but what's the answer? It's always been divide and rule, that we know and I would say society has never been as divided as now. so we shut up about inequality of wealth, distribution of resources, uncapped immigration changing communities, and people being left behind in the maelstrom? Effectively, clamp our mouths shut, close our eyes and ears and pretend all is fine and dandy, because if we do this then the ruling classes can't 'win'; we're no longer playing their game and arguing amongst ourselves? How does that work to affect change? Labour's immigration announcements today muddy the waters further - the electorate have been told that we need immigration, it's good for growth, we need the skills yada yada, but now we're told they got that wrong, we should be training our own people, protecting our English language, communities, heritage and actually immigration is probably not good economically... Which is it? Even our government seemingly can't decide.

The government (not just this one) will say what they think they need to say to try and stay in power, not necessarily what they actually think or what is best for the country.

You only have to look at Keir’s changing view on what a woman is.

I think my view of politicians on all sides really went downhill when I realised this, that they are mainly self serving and will say what they need to to keep their job.

There are a few exceptions, I think Teresa May was genuine, not that I thought she was particularly effective, but she had good intentions.

What did your party do for the 15 years they were in power?

You do know it’s Conservatives who have delivered most Reform votes to them right?

Councils controlled by Reform are seeking to use legal challenges to block hotels being used for asylum seekers in the areas they are responsible for. If they succeed, they will seek and get huge amounts of publicity. I live in an area that now has a council controlled by Reform, I didn’t vote for them. But I personally do not enjoy being stared at by the blokes from the hotel and neither do my friends. I think if they succeed their popularity where I live at least would increase. Who here has a hotel in their area?

@BrightonEarlyOneSummerMorning your post is actually perfect at explaining in clear concise terms what has happened.

Unfashionably, I liked rishi and I'm not a fan of the Tories at all. ( never voted that way and spent many many years decrying their actions). But there was something " human " about him, where he acknowledged he was coming from a place of extreme privilege but still had concern for the working person. His response to the energy crisis helped matters- I'm not convinced starmer would have took the same action, going by his wfa fiasco.

It’s Labour’s policies causing a massive uptick to Reform. At the GE they had a few MPs. Now polls show enough for a win in FPTP.

Labour won’t do anything , they don’t want to .

@BuckerooDerby

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of your points, but what's the answer? It's always been divide and rule, that we know and I would say society has never been as divided as now. so we shut up about inequality of wealth, distribution of resources, uncapped immigration changing communities, and people being left behind in the maelstrom? Effectively, clamp our mouths shut, close our eyes and ears and pretend all is fine and dandy, because if we do this then the ruling classes can't 'win'; we're no longer playing their game and arguing amongst ourselves?

No, quite the opposite. We shout from the rooftops, call out those responsible and absolutely demand change.

The only thing I'm pointing out is that for that to do any good, you need to determine "those responsible" accurately, blame the people who are actually to blame and demand the kinds of changes that will actually work.

Labour's immigration announcements today muddy the waters further - the electorate have been told that we need immigration, it's good for growth, we need the skills yada yada, but now we're told they got that wrong, we should be training our own people, protecting our English language, communities, heritage and actually immigration is probably not good economically... Which is it? Even our government seemingly can't decide.

Ah yes, good old Keir "These are my principles, and if you don't like them, I have others" Starmer, informing us that soaring immigration has done ‘incalculable’ damage to the UK. So that will be why he was so adamantly behind remaining in the EU then, to the point of screwing his own party's election chances in 2019 by insisting on a second referendum that would alienate the entire red wall. 😂

Starmer is a centre left Trump. Words don't actually have meaning to him, they're just sounds that he has to make to achieve whatever political end comes up from time to time.

The general economic consensus is that immigration IS good for growth.That hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is that a party successfully convincing people of the opposite has won a bunch of council seats and trounced Labour in a series of polls.

Chances are, I'll also be packing my bags and leaving you to your fate. I love my country, but I don't love it enough to stay at all costs.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves where will you move to?
If Labour returned to power after a Tory or Reform government, would you come back to UK?

They could start by separating the different types of immigration and analysing each of the types to show current numbers, cost to the tax payer and net gain or loss (eg taxes paid vs cost of housing, benefits, health care etc) and crimes committed. Eg students may be a net gain to the economy as they pay high fees and are here temporarily. It would give more information about the current numbers and cost benefits.

Haven't got that far yet. We already have the right to live and work indefinitely in three other countries without having to apply for visas etc, so we would need to work out which one would be the best option. We would most likely return to the country where we initially met, where we both have permanent resident status. However, our decision would also depend on whether my elderly dad was still alive by that time.

As to whether we would come back after a change of government. It's hard to say. It would depend on how much damage Reform had done, how much the UK had changed and also on what our dd had decided to do in the interim... at the moment, she fully intends to work in the NHS after qualifying but if Reform gets in and dismantles it, she would be very likely to head overseas instead.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves thank you for answering my question.

The problem with your first point is that with an actively hostile, infantilised media, getting across an idea that stupid people (and we are only concerned with stupid people - intelligent people know who they are going to vote for) are being constantly conditioned to reject is far from easy - making an excellent, watertight case for something in 10,000 words is not going to help when the resulting headlines are "Labour won't stop immigration!", and that's all most of those people read.

And the problem with the second of those is that if they try, it will require a lot of up front investment that won't bear fruit in a single election cycle. In four years time we'd still all be paying for it, with none of the positive results having yet materialised, so they'll lose and it will all be reversed immediately.

No-one forces people to read or listen to the right-wing media. There is left wing media out there for people too.

I'm pretty sure that's all been done, for years now. There are certainly figures available breaking down the cost:benefit by which part of the world the immigration comes from. Ironically immigration from the EU, which was the only kind Brexit was actually able to stop, was the most valuable. It's true that there are some other countries or regions where it's a net drain.

Not entirely accurate because one million people who applied to the EU Settlement Scheme were not born in the EU. EU freedom of movement rules allow EU citizens (who may have gained EU citizenship themselves) to bring with them their non-EU/EEA family members;

The surprising diversity of the EU national population in the UK
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/diversity-eu-national-population-uk/

Continent of birth
EU nationals
Non-EEA family members
Total
Africa
157,127
88,643
245,770
Americas
113,218
68,848
182,066
Asia
201,667
190,461
392,128