to think most women are still doing the majority of parenting?

[cardycard]

Been on a flight recently. In front of me was a mother and two children. The dad was sat on the opposite aisle reading a book. She was feeding both of them their meal. Then one of them was sick. She was trying to help the child who had been sick and keeping an eye on the other one. The dad just looked over to the child was sick and said are you ok, then carried on his reading his book while she struggled to deal with both of them.

I see this everywhere. It will be women changing the nappies even when the dad is around, or taking toddlers to the toilet. In service stations, the women will be feeding the children while dad is on his phone.

At work, it is mostly women leaving early to pick up or if children are ill. Women are adjusting their work hours. in my organisation the majority of men do not even take their full paternity leave even though it is fully paid.

For the people who can't read, I am not saying this is the case for everyone. I am sure there are wonderful fathers around.

I was also agreeing and building on my earlier points that the expectations have to be built from the beginning.

I think it’s possible to be equal parents if you both earn similar amounts.

A few months ago, I came across a thread I posted in November 2020, a month before I had ds, and smiled a bit ruefully at my naivety. DH and I were going to share nursery pick ups and drop offs, we both worked, I’d worked hard for my career and blah blah blah. And then DS happened and I very soon learned that someone had to look after him and if the other parent can’t or won’t then what do you do?

DH earns more than I do. If one of us had to give up our careers it would be me. As it is I am three days a week and going down to two next year. Our parenting isn’t equal, not even close. Maybe if we earned the same we’d both drop a day and do four days a week and things would be more equal but that just isn’t what has happened.

It's all I see amongst my friends and family and it's the reason I don't have children.

I agree with you in general for day to day, but one thing I've noticed on holiday the Dads seem to be doing most of it. I think the issue is usually its the woman who wants the kids so they end up doing most of the work (and the reason I say this is when women continue to have children when the father already does nothing with the first one)

I see quite a lot of different set ups due to my job. Huge majority are where the mum does the vast bulk of the childcare and mental load around DC (suitable food, schools, activities, shoes/clothing) and is the one either working part time or strictly 9-5 to facilitate it. This is across couples and single mums.

There are a couple of exceptions - a dad who took shared parental leave, and a set up where the grandmother (mum’s mum) takes on a lot of it instead of the male partner.

I completely agree.
the mum probably booked, organised, packed for the holiday too.

It's definitely not the same.

I remember my MIL kind of ironically laughing when I was talking about division of childcare, in an 'in a perfect world!' kind of way, as if the thought were delusional.

We were both working full time in the same industry. I remember she literally cried over the phone once when I went away one Saturday leaving exDH with the kids. I was apparently 'taking away his freedom' and she said 'I'LL have to come over and do the childcare then,' but she never batted an eye at me being alone with them.

Insanity.

What is very noticeable, whatever the division of labour, is dads being lauded for doing things that are completely run of the mill parenting for mums.

Research shows that men on average earn more after the birth of their first child as they are more likely to be promoted.

We know what happens to women.

The more I live through this, the more I think the Marxists I was taught by at university were onto something. Ask not who changes the nappies. Look underneath at the power structure and the money.

That's pretty extreme but both my DM and DMIL would probably recognise this view - they wouldn't come and do it themselves though!

If DH behaved like that he wouldn't be my husband anymore.

My lovely husband is the same. He always stepped up in every given situation. We all adore him.

In general you are absolutely correct.

The fact that there are outliers in which the dad is a very equally hands on parent doesn’t change the fact that this is true at all population level.

Those of you who have hands on partners, good for you but respectfully you are naive if you think this is the norm.

I did an experiment at work with the men with toddlers where I asked them about when they were going to start toilet training their toddler. None of them even knew when it would happen because they were leaving it to their wives.

What do you think those women would say if the men really took a stance and initiated potty training?

They don't always take it well. See they don't want a co-]parent, they want someone who will do what they tell them to

The sick child on the flight example is terrible but I generally don’t think you can judge a parenting relationship by only what you see outside the home.

My OH used to do all of the nappy changes when we were out, but hardly did any at home.

When we’re on holiday it’s him playing on the beach with the kids whilst I read a book. But he’ll get the lie in every morning and it will have been me who packed all the kids stuff and will do all their laundry when we get back.

OH does more school pick ups than me, but I arrange literally everything else for school - uniforms, making sure bags are unpacked and packed, fees are paid, clubs booked and paid etc. It will almost certainly me who does all the research and admin for applying to senior schools but he’ll pitch up to all the open days and ask a lot of questions.

I am not only basing it on what I see outside the home. It is also based on family, friends, work colleagues. Even in the workplace, it is women rushing to pick up children from school or leaving work because a child is sick not the men.

Even if men 'help' women are still have the majority of the mental load.

https://ifs.org.uk/news/women-much-more-likely-men-give-paid-work-or-cut-hours-after-childbirth-even-when-they-earn

Even where the mother was the main earner before having a child, she is much more likely to give up work or reduce her hours after becoming a parent.

This thread has made me feel a bit better about my building resentment towards my children’s father. He can lie on the sofa on his phone while all hell breaks loose around him, and then when I ask him to “help”/intervene/lose my temper he gets all defensive and bewildered as though he’s a visitor in his own home. I’d rather live in a society where roles are firmly defined - even if it meant women rarely work, because at least we wouldn’t end up doing EVERYTHING and being resentful that the men are useless.

Yes I agree OP. But I also think that women are generally the drivers behind lots of pregnancies. Not in all cases of course. But lots of men either actively don't want children or more likely, don't care either way but go ahead to keep the women in their lives happy.
Never have a child with a man who isn't absolutely passionate about the idea.

Thought a lot about your comment. I suppose in some situations you’ve got a valid point. But I also think it’s a vicious circle because the men don’t take the initiative, or don’t know or care how to do these things, so the women instinctively do it. It could be biological dare I say…

@cardycard I’ve not ever seen that. Most people need the higher income to pay the mortgage and bills. Certainly in London. Women work at very high powered jobs and don’t give them up. It’s either a nanny, use childcare, or lesser paid parent steps up. Most people cannot afford to drop income significantly. DD already discussing this with partner - she earns 3 times his salary so no giving up her work I think.

@cardycard I noticed exactly this on a couple of long haul flights recently - whether I noticed it more because I was stuck in one place for an extended period of time I don't know.

One French family, one British. In both cases the mother did all the parenting for the whole flight whilst the father watched films, and very occasionally got up to get something out of the overhead locker. Yes, that may have been the way the seating set up fell, but I like to think DH and I would have swapped at some point during the flight.

I did wonder whether I was being unreasonable, but I mentioned it to DH and he knew exactly which family I was talking about and had noticed the same thing, so it wasn't just me.

I chose to be the default parent and my husband geared up in his provider role. For some reason it was vitally important for me to be able to walk my child to school, pick her up afterwards and be present for the school assemblies or whenever the school needed parent volunteers. It was just something I wasn’t going to miss and I felt a bit selfish being the parent who got to do that

You may not have seen it but it is the higher paid women giving up their jobs to stay home. Research shows that.

Here are more stats for you:

https://theconversation.com/the-motherhood-pay-gap-why-womens-earnings-decline-after-having-children-220207#:~:text=We%20observed%20large%20and%20persistent,Fathers'%20earnings%20appear%20largely%20unaffected.

Mothers' earnings decrease by 49 per cent the year of birth, with a penalty of 34.3 per cent 10 years after. Fathers' earnings appear largely unaffected

The DH could have swapped in my scenario too but no he looked over, saw everything that was happening and carried on with reading his book while his kids were crying.

I have seen a lot on flights that it is the women changing the nappies, taking children to the toilet. The father is usually sat enjoying a drink. I have seen fathers sat quite a distance away too or asleep while the mother struggles up several children.