Have women become soft

[peeweehill]

Hear me first ive just got in from having a chat to my neighbour shes almost 80 really sweet lady known her for years.
Well we was having a natter while she was waiting for her daughter to arrive (she`s going away for the weekend) and i said something how society has changed a lot and how far technology has come.

She agreed it was all for the best and how we would of loved it back in the day. She then said the biggest thing that she as noticed the most is that women are getting softer.
I said what do you mean she replied with we all used to be tough as nails now most are gone soft.
Before i could reply her daughter arrived she said catch up when i get home on monday.

Now im waiting for monday lol😆
It got me thinking have us women got softer.🤔
Some of what i read on MN i think she may have a point i think i dont know.
What do you netters think.

When something this small takes so much of your time and energy, it seems to me you must have too much time on your hands. My opinion.

Wouldn't this apply to most of the stuff on here?

I totally agree.

Same as men really. We went through two world wars, that toughened everyone. My nan is still alive and survived the blitz.

Women had to be tough.

Oh sure, but I’m talking about the latter!

I've never really heard anyone describe todays women as soft but I've heard it a few times in relation to younger men. They are described as soft as they show more emotion or talk about feelings. Or soft because they cant get up and do a full days hard graft at work.

This ONS graphic is good.
<a class="break-all" href="https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20160107120359/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/a-century-of-home-ownership-and-renting-in-england-and-wales/short-story-on-housing.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20160107120359/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/a-century-of-home-ownership-and-renting-in-england-and-wales/short-story-on-housing.html

Home ownership has fallen in the last decades but is still much higher than the immediate post war years, let alone the early part of the century.

Obviously I was talking in the context of the last 50 years, I don't think the poster was referring to 100 years ago 😆

Why would people be even referencing the early part of the century?

I don't think women have become softer, I think we've just stopped taking on the lions share of absolutely everything and will now voice that we expect others to pull their weight. It's a good thing IMO.

Hardship and challenge is what builds resilience. For many people nowadays the hardships they face are very very different to what they would have faced decades ago. So different type of resilience required.

I do also think the huge focus on wellbeing and personal growth is somewhat counter to the development of resilience. People nowadays are encouraged to look inwards for their 'journey' rather than outwards. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it's definitely happening.

I assumed the 80 year old was referring to her whole lifespan and as you can see from the graphic we’re still above 1980s levels.

My Dad who is an old Boomer did recently state that there are no Matriarchs left, by that he meant that his Mum and Aunts really took control of most things, sorted everyone out, that said, he wasn't talking about his own generation of women. My parents are mid to late 70s and definitely had most of the things listed up thread to make life comfortable, my Mum had a car at 17 in the 1960s for example. Plus they had a nice house in West London on the equivalent of £50000 now but my Mum did work and was commuting in London heavily pregnant. They were the generation that rejected all the stuffiness of their parents so in some ways life was loads easier, my MIL was a hippy for instance and just spent lots of time, by all accounts sitting around and being free. My parents went to Uganda for a work experience and had to flee Idi Armen, but not having my Granddad's generation mindset meant that my Dad left my mum to make her own way home. In the end she left with a friend, had to creep past a sleeping guard at the airport and was helped by some American soldiers who took them with them on a cargo plane. I would say that is pretty tough but at the same time my Mum is quite a vulnerable person and I do notice that even now (my parents are divorced) men like to help her, men her age offering to help with all sorts around the house, give her lifts, pay for her food when eating out, one friend even offered to pay for her to have a new boiler etc, it's like people perceive her as small and vulnerable but she refuses as she is very independent. I mean when she was in Uganda she went down to 6 stone as she became a vegan due to the meat having lots of maggots in it. She didn't want to just deal with it.

A couple of my Grandmother's had what they described as 'lovely' lives as they were rural and lived off the land, one in Denmark, one in England, never food shortages, plenty of fun. Both of them hated living in the City as life for them was tougher in the City!

I think Men have changed quite a bit but not my Dad's generation (late 70s), I would argue my Granddad's generation who fought in the second world war, he often gave my Dad lectures about needing to grow up, needing to look after my Mum now and was appalled when he didn't come back from Uganda with her. That said, so is my DH pretty shocked by that story and he is mid 40s so maybe it is an individual thing rather than generation thing, I would argue that DH is pretty tough emotionally but that can be frustrating as he doesn't talk about his feelings much. He lost his Dad at 19 in the 00s which was unusual in our peer group and that has definitely made him tougher emotionally than all of us. I am mid 40s and wouldn't say my Mum, mid 70s is tougher than me but certainly my Gran's generation yes.

Amin not Idi 'Armen'.

Well I am constantly surprised to find I am pretty much 50. I was only just 21! so clearly an 80 year old must have been born in 1900 or before, if I am only in my twenties still.

I think it's resilience that's missing in a lot of people. Everyone seems to want to slap a label on and make allowances to avoid life's knocks. You fail, pick yourself up, learn from it and try again. We seem to be shielding people from this cycle one way or another. Possibly by over diagnosing normal personality quirks or moods. I've been thinking about this because yesterday 5 different adults throughout the day mentioned in casual conversation that a child of theirs had ADHD/ND issues. Discussed like the label was a badge of achievement. It was very weird. The odds of all of them having genuine issues seems miniscule.

I can see a difference in resilience definitely. I've worked on elderly hospital wards for 10+ years and generally they're tough as anything (more so the women!). Even doing the odd shift on other wards the younger patients complain about simple things hurting such as taking blood pressure 🙃. As a pp mentioned, life is easier in terms of having modern technology. I do feel this has contributed to less resilience, not having to do much for themselves and an increase in anxiety etc. For men and women.

Yes I do lean towards agreeing. I have older parents so my nan was part of the generation who
got evacuated during WW2. She was hard as nails, as are my mum and dad.
I find the biggest difference is they don’t seem to dwell on bad things that have happened to them. They just deal with it head on and they understand that there’s nothing they can do to change the situation. It happened, deal with it, put one foot in front of the other.
I had a mildly traumatic birth (nothing awful, just a bit of a panic at the end) and my mum said to me don’t dwell on this, you’re healthy and baby is healthy, you can’t change it and we move on. Honestly, it was the best advice I could have been given.
But in the same breath, people used to live close together to extended family. My elder family members all lived in practically the same street so they had a network of people to socialise and help when times got tough.

If women used to be tough as nails, why did so many of them ally themselves with abusive men to the point that could not get away? I feel that women now are tougher, as there appears to be less shit to put up with and fewer and fewer women are willing to accept a partner who would not parent their own children.

As a result, you see men do the math, either be involved and a good partner that meets her half-way or be an insufferable incel. I think a lot of them chose to step up.

You can see it here on this forum too. Most posters are appalled at badly behaving male partners, whereas before, the woman would be advised to put up with it and told "this is just how men are".

My grandmother left school at 11 to go into service - hard physical work. I’m glad I and my daughter didn’t have to do that, and I’m glad we have modern conveniences that mean we have more time and opportunities in our lives.

That said we all respond to the challenges in our lives. There are women in war zones right now who are having to be tough. I know lots of women who are tough, have overcome all sorts of adversity, abuse, some of whom who have come to the UK fleeing awful situations. I know women working in hard jobs, a couple of them on covid wards during the pandemic. I think we can all be tough if we need to be but am also glad that lots of us don’t have to be all the time

Not really. As someone whose relatives kept pigeons, if they can get to supposed new clothing stock, in a shop or warehouse, then there's a possibility of disease and mites. When I was growing up in the 70's, we had lads who had hawks and others who had terriers, that's how we cleared out pigeons and rats. We bred French bulldogs for ratting. We domesticated cats, for vermin control. So since the beginning of time, that's been a concern.

It's all maslow's hierarchy of needs, people don't change, the environment does. The knife crime and anti social behaviour would scare 'hardened women ' of days gone by. I always say it, but fears for our children have changed, not gone. The housing and employment my oarents enjoyed, is no longer there. The publuc transport isn't. A lot of older women (I'm near 60) seem to resent the build up of women's rights and the sexism in the workplace etc being addressed. Not putting up with male violence, insults and treating us like commodities doesn't make us soft. Life should get better for each generation.

My parents were similar but I think they were outliers a bit in that they were probably considered 'liberal' parents; my Dad in particular, would talk about the 'whys' of our actions as children, if we were a bit badly behaved, my parents didn't really tell us off in that respect. Plus my Mum had taken various child psychology courses as part of her work so that informed lots of her methods when caring for us. That said, they still didn't really naval gaze and thought that was quite self indulgent. The stuff they thought was important to ruminate on was how you existed in society, your contribution to your community, your politics I suppose. If you moaned or moan to my Dad about grievances in your life, unless massive like marriage problems, he would always say, "if that is the worse thing that can happen to you then you are very lucky!" This was very much a view he took because he worked all over the world and saw some very difficult circumstances and thought perspective should be applied.

Yeah but it takes a while. The war time generation would have raised that resilience in their children.

Yes I think I do actually. My grandmother did work hard and didn’t have all the labour saving devices I have but she didn’t go out to work 5 days a week managing teams of people and a workload that required skill and expertise and then come home and run a home and raise a child alone because her husband skipped out on his responsibilities.

@Ponoka7 I do agree with much of what you say. I still think it is evidence that for some people there is an issue in their life if they struggle to cope with finding pigeon shit in a childs hat though. Might be a sign of mental overload perhaps, not sure.

Interesting point about life getting better for each successive generation. I think lots of races, native Americans, aborigines maybe, can't see that happening. But yes, in theory agree we like to think life will be getting better / easier..Even though the planet is slowly running out of resources to support
everyone. Wars, disease and famine tend to come along unfortunately and maybe this is the future.

It’s interesting.

I think there is a core of women ( esp in MN) who believe they are phenomenally and inspiringly tough.

They are the ones who snap and pepper their posts with aggressive language snd responses such as WTF!!! FFS!! and they to shame others into “ asserting boundaries” over every possible slight like MIL has chosen an inconvenient time for Christmas dinner to be served.

It’s interesting because while they definitely come across as tough and gobby, if you stand back and watch long enough, it tends to become apparent that actually they are all spikes because underneath they are quite insecure - even afraid. So in terms of real toughness, I’d agree. In terms of a veneer, I think tough is a “look” that far more women adopt now than ever .