To want Brexit be reversed

[BeKookySheep]

I don’t normally post about politics, but this has been playing on my mind for a while. I wasn’t super political before the referendum — just a mum trying to do her best for her family. But now, years later, I really feel like Brexit hasn’t delivered what we were promised. And I think we should seriously start talking about reversing it.

My eldest is 16, really bright, and had dreams of studying languages and maybe doing a year abroad. We looked into Erasmus a while ago, but that’s gone now. And the cost and hassle of studying or working in Europe is so much higher now. She asked me, “Why is it so much harder for us than it was for you, Mum?” And honestly, I didn’t know what to say. It hit me hard.

Everything’s more expensive — our food shop has gone up loads, and don’t even get me started on getting certain things for school packed lunches! Little things, but they add up. My brother runs a small business and he's drowning in paperwork just to send stuff to Ireland. And a friend of mine left the NHS because she felt so overstretched — they can’t recruit enough staff anymore, especially from Europe.

Brexit hasn’t made anything better. It’s just made life harder in so many small but important ways. And if something clearly isn’t working — and is limiting our children’s futures — why shouldn’t we talk about changing it?

We tell our kids it’s okay to admit when something’s not right and make it better. Maybe it’s time we took our own advice.

Would love to hear if others are feeling the same. Has Brexit made life harder for your family too?

The paperwork hassle with exporting to NI is all down to France and the EU punishing the UK for a) daring to have a referendum on EU membership after Maastricht and the Lisbon treaty (aka EU constitution in disguise) and b) refusing to either ignore the will of the people or run a second referendum and tell the people to vote the right way or else (showing a complete disregard/ignornce as to how referendums are arranged in the UK, where they are not a part of normal government - and also a complete disregard for the democratic principle, which is why many people voted to leave the EU).
The rise in prices is due to a) privatization of utilities in the UK (France's energy companies are state owned and the government could tell them to keep prices down, for e.g.) and because energy companies have been allowed to profiteer - how come they are making more profits if prices have only gone up in relation to costs?
Food prices are high everywhere, not just in the UK but across the EU and the world. Nothing to do with Brexit; a lot to do with war, rumours of war etc.
Travelling abroad for study was a privilege most of those paying for our membership of the EU could never do. Which is one reason many voted to leave the EU - it gave them no appreciable advantage.
Yes, you are being unreasonable to want to overturn undemocratically a democratic vote.

What utter tosh. I really CBA to address all of your post but In relation to NI, the Irish Republic democratically decided in 1972/3 that they wanted to be part of the EU and they want to stay part of it because it brings prosperity. So paperwork hassles in NI are nothing to do with any punishments meted out by the EU or France. It’s the inevitable consequence of the UK deciding to leave the EU, which is its constitutional right. Any EU state can decide to leave at any time.

For the rest, over time, it will become clear whether the cost of leaving is a lower standard of living in the UK. For many people it’s not clear cut at this stage because of Covid etc so we have to wait and see. But it will be become apparent given more time.

Did you not hear Macron saying the UK must be punished for leaving? Did you not hear him say to the then PM that NI was not part of the UK (unlike Reunion, in the Pacific, which is definitely a department of France)?
The UK suggested smart borders as are in use in other places where the EU meets a non-EU country. The EU rejected this solution.
Nevertheless I agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. However, the question of soveriegnty was what exercised many voters, rather than the advantages that might accrue from EU membership.

I live in France now and the quality of life here is far superior to that in the UK.

Don't believe what you read in the UK media.

Surely that depends on various factors. Where you live in either country for example, the job someone has.

Sovereignty over prosperity is a perfectly reasonable choice, but many voters were misled in to believing that sovereignty plus prosperity would be the outcome.

Macron didn’t say that!

https://fullfact.org/europe/french-pm-eu-president-punishment-letter/

First of all the letter was addressed to the President of the EU not to the UK.

What he said was:

Il paraît donc nécessaire que l’Union européenne montre sa totale détermination à obtenir le plein respect de l’accord par le Royaume-Uni et fasse valoir ses droits en utilisant les leviers à sa disposition de manière ferme, unie et proportionnée. Il est indispensable de montrer clairement aux opinions publiques européennes que le respect des engagements souscrits n’est pas négociable et qu’il y a davantage de dommages à quitter l’Union qu’à y demeurer.

My French isn’t as good as it used to be but that translates as:

“It therefore seems necessary for the European Union to show its total determination to obtain full compliance with the agreement by the United Kingdom and to assert its rights by using the levers at its disposal in a firm, united and proportionate manner. It is essential to make it clear to European public opinion that compliance with the commitments entered into is non-negotiable and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it”

So he called on the EU for a firm, united and proportionate appliance of EU rules.

The word punishment is not contained in the letter.

If you are referring to his last sentence about making it clear within the EU that compliance with the agreed commitments is non-negotiable and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining, that was in response to the UK asking to only have selective* parts of EU law apply, which obviously can’t work within the EU as a whole.

As for smart borders, it was very clear at the time, that the political problems in the island of Ireland take precedence and pre-existing political commitments not to put any borders on the island of Ireland had to take precedence as a condition of the peace problem.

There’s nothing in it to approach this as goodies and baddies. That letter, though, seems pretty clear that leaving the EU was considered a ‘wrong’, not a choice but a mischief. It may be couched in diplomatic euphemism but it’s pretty obvious that Macron wanted the UK to have as little EU cooperation as could be managed, and to make a point. Compromise was obviously not a priority. “Proportionate” is a terrible weasel word.

But, as I said, this isn’t a villain v hero story. It’s the real world. We shouldn’t damn the Commission or EU members either, for looking out for themselves. I just wish the EU had been more sorrow and less anger.

Surely that depends on various factors. Where you live in either country for example, the job someone has.

Actually it depends on all of the state provisions that makes life civilised and provides greater equality, such as; subsidised public transport, maintenance of public spaces, libraries, proper social care, good health care provided through non-profit obligatory health insurance including services like at home palliative care, subsidised post-natal physio sessions, and of course, free education, including free university provision where tuition is paid for.

France is a large country so obviously there will be greater provision of these services in towns rather than rural areas but I think most people would agree that farming is fairly lucrative in France, they have a strong lobbying dialogue with the French government, and that they are obsessive about their food products.

Life here is civilised. I’m glad people are happy where they are of course. People don’t always have the same preferences when it comes to enjoying where they live.

Proportionate is a weasel word only if you are interpreting that way.

Literally it means, stick to the rules. Don’t under enforce them or over enforce.

The EU is a technical, unemotional, rules-based organisation, as it is only through rules that twenty-seven countries with twenty-four different languages can find consensus. By discussing, refining, voting on, and agreeing to legislation, is how they maintain unity.

If anything the EU were remarkably tolerant with the UK wanting to leave, especially given some of the antics of the UK government at the time. I simply don’t recognise your comment that they displayed anger? I would be interested in any examples you can provide? They were very disappointed, and at times sorrowful that we were leaving, but enforcing agreed rules without allowing exceptions is not tantamount to anger. It’s about sticking to agreed rules.

I voted to remain, so i would absolutely love it if Brexit could be reversed. The UK has burned a lot of bridges and I would be surprised if Britain was welcomed back. The UK seems to be leaning quite a lot more to the right than I've seen in my adult years, it's depressing.

‘Proportionate’ is a word imported from European jurisprudence. Its whole purpose is to allow judges subjective judgment as widely as possible.

One example of anger is the letter you’ve quoted!

You're joking aren't you? The EU would welcome back our £350 million a week in a heartbeat. We won't go back though, ever. So it's time to stop daydreaming about that....

It's been 9 years since the referendum and 5 and a half years since we left the EU. The 'remainers' really need to get over themselves, and stop dwelling on something that is NEVER going to happen. We are not going back into the EU.

We've left ages ago now. Time to stop complaining, accept it, get over it, and move on. People still carping on about it are sounding ridiculous now, and frankly, it's boring. Also, whether the UK 'moving to the right a lot more now' is a bad thing is a matter of opinion.

The thread asks whether or not you would undo brexit if you could, which is what I've answered. So are opinions only valid to you if they are the same as yours?

Abso-fucking-lutely

God forbid you should be bored…how awful

Did you not hear Macron saying the UK must be punished for leaving?

I would love to read where he said this @Grammarnut

Brexit was an act of violence towards the EU. It weakened both the EU and the UK at an economically and politically bad time. It wasted huge amounts of time in its negotiation and took attention away from more important concerns (eg Russia). Collective eyes were taken off the ball and it damaged the UK’s global reputation. UK negotiators were particularly crap and came across as playing for an audience, not even trying to get any kind of a sensible deal and instead favouring spouting on about blue passports, fish, and non-existent oven-ready deals. The UK never showed any signs of even trying to be civilised in the negotiation process, any more than the Government behaved in a civilised fashion at home. The entire era was characterised by boorish behaviour, childish jibes, and corrosive, corrupt politicians.

Love your certainty, harping on and complaining... 🙄

But, as a nation, we fucked up.

I am sure that in my lifetime, we will go back.

History will write about the criminality of this referendum.

I was against leaving.

I just take a more moderate path about the whole thing. “Act of Violence” are not thoughtful or well-chosen words.

Well chosen and carefully considered, imvho, because of the way it was done. It didn’t have to be, but it very much was an act of violence.

It was an act of national self harm that can't be referenced elsewhere. No other nation in history actively chose to impose economic sanctions on itself.

To deny it at this point is just depressing.

The facts and stats prove what a mistake it was.

I say this as an EU resident with children who have EU citizenship. I am sad about what has happened to my country and the mindset of too many of her citizens.

Its definitely limited peoples freedom of movement for sure.

Ive irish and english friends working as Tefl teachers in Italy. The irish can just go.

My English friend was telling me that he is having to jump through all manner of visa hoops to be able to work there

History will write about the criminality of this referendum

No it won't.

I am sure that in my lifetime, we will go back.

No we won't.

But, as a nation, we fucked up.

No we didn't.

HTH.

@Walkaround · Today 18:58

Brexit was an act of violence towards the EU.

Just when I thought I'd seen it all on here!

Seriously, give your head a wobble!

I'm out. I can't continue to 'debate' with some remainers. I'm speechless at that remark, ^ and shaking my head at some of the other comments.

Enjoy your evening! I'm off out for an evening walk!