To think that maybe people should be a little more thoughtful before posting hurtful comments about children with special needs/disabilities.

[wrinklytum]

Grr.

Had a bad day and maybe a little oversensitive.

First and foremost,they are children.

And they are loved.

I think the reason for 20 weeks is that many problems just aren't detectable before then. For example, I know that the very earliest you can scan the heart is 18 weeks, and even then the results are not easy to see, 20 weeks is better.

I really thought I knew before our scans how I would feel if there was a problem - as it turned out, I had no idea. When they told us, it was like being knocked down by a bus, and it took a week to feel capable of making a decision.

Interestingly, though, initially I was keen to decide straight away, get it over with, but the consultant insisted on us taking some time. And he was so right. I now feel we gave the decision the thought and time and space it deserved, rather than rushing into anything.

"use abortion as a kind of get-out clause?"

If you can show me one woman who would willingly have an abortion of any kind, let alone a late one, as a get-out clause, I'll eat my hat.

I knew I shouldn't have said that because it would get taken the wrong way. I am going to bow out now, as I don't want to be jumped on.

I am glad you had such a happy ending with your ds, but can't you imagine any scenario where it wouldn't be so happy?

When I worked in CAMHS I once saw a 12 year old girl. She had been forced into prostitution by her aunt and was pregnant with her uncle's baby.

Really truly, are you telling me, we should have denied her a termination and forced her to continue with a pregnancy and labour?

That would be utterly inhuman to prioritise the welfare of an embryo over the welfare of this poor violated little girl

TTT, I don't think there's a chance that many women who choose to keep the baby ever regret not having a termination, likewise I was very pleased to get my degree and not have a baby when I was 19 and had partied for at elast 2 weeks whilst pregnant and had a termination at 9 weeks.

I think this illustrates perfectly why sometimes discussion forums can upset and offend people. Which brings us nicely back to the OP - no, YANBU to expect that people should not be mean or nasty.

But you might be BU to expect people not to voice their opinions.

Tiredlady, I agree. I had forgotten most of those very sad cases as I always assume people terminate in such situations.

On what grounds would someone terminate at 30 weeks and why is the law there? Genuine interest as I cannot imagine a case where SN would/could be detected after 24 weeks and then a termination had.... I am willing to listen.

This is why some of the anti-abortion campaigns really upset me, they go on as if we're all just downing G&Ts and saying 'oh, I'll go to the doctors sometime soon, it's ok, I can have an abortion whenever I like'

they forget that most late abortions are in really distressing circumstances.

and FioFio - I'm sorry, this thread seems to be discussing two separate topics, doesn't it! I didn't know you could terminate for disability up to term, what counts as a disability?

I was about to post about the 'suffering' side as well. If my son's condition could be tested for (thank god it can't) I'm sure there would be many rushing to terminate him (fine their choice) and using his 'suffering' as justification. I'm well aware that some disabled people do suffer- but he is without doubt the happiest child I know. His life is I believe limited compared to his brothers' and his future choices are non-existent at the moment- but he does not suffer - he enjoys his life and who am I to judge or not recognise the value in his experiences of life.

His life makes my life a lot harder than it would otherwise be - massively harder. Do I think that a good enough reason to knock him off pre or post natally? No I'm afraid I don't. I'm not a saint - I just love him as much as my other children. Something that I think people who aren't parents of children with severe disabilities struggle to understand.

GreyRiver - mostly this thread has been about sensitivity when discussing disabled children - not about banning views. And mostl;y, when someone asks for sensitivity, it is because someone is actually affected by what is being said. Several MN-ers have reported times when people have discussed termination of disabled babies in front of their disabled children!

I am of the mind that challenge, education and enlightenment is the way frward, but can completely understand when parents who have spent the week fighting for their rights to have their children educated and allowed to take part in society with dignity and self-respect come on MN fro some moral support and find the same dismissivness to children like thiers on here.

Of course it is ok to discuss and question all the decisions we make regarding life and how we value it....but not in terms which rae dismissive of disabled children or which pay no regard to the feelings of those children and thier parents.

God - I would go mad with it all. It rankles every time I hear or read a comment about shoes which are invariable described as 'orthopaedic' if the commentator doesn't like them. My DS has never worn anything other than orthopaedic shoes - I get sick of hearing it used to describe the ultimate awfulness in footewar from which every person of taste should cringe. How I would feel if people made throw-away comments about children with severe disabilities and i was a parent of such a child, I do not know - but it wouldn't be patient or educative, it would be furious.

LMD_ there is no definition of disability- if your doctor is in agreement then the termination for 'severe disability' can be carried out up to term. This includes conditions such as DS that many would describe as a moderate disability at most.

thomcat, because of posts from yourself and eidsvold i have felt able to say no to screeening for DS in last pregnancy and this one.

we are having heart scans done because of dh previous heart condition and dd1 current mild one, but feel that after everything last year, it cant be any worse.

have neice and nephew with CP, and cousins and other relatives on the Autistic spectrum.

There were times when dh was at his worst when he wanted to die. he couldnt face going on anymore. but we always had hope things could get better.

forced euthanasia is very wrong.

Posie - here's an example. I know Lisa. She was indeed offered a termination at 35 weeks because of DS.

Rhubarb's sister was also offered a termination at 35 weeks or thereabouts because of DS, IIRC.

PosieParker every year there are post 35 week abortions for termination. If you google you'll find the figures.

PosieParker every year there are post 35 week abortions for disability. If you google you'll find the figures.

Some of these will presumably be condtions such as anencephaly, but others will fall into the grey area- the law allows them to.

Can i ask, if it's not too much information, how one has a post 35 week termination when the baby is completely viable at that stage?

i know that between 22 and 24 weeks, they have to give an injection to the baby's heart to stop it beating before inducing labour, but our consultant said they were only allowed to do that up to 24 weeks. so how do you deliver a viable baby and make it a termination?

sorry if this is distressing for anyone, I genuinely am trying to understand how this can be possible.

I think they do the same- there is another method in which the skull is crushed (sorry) but I'm not sure that's legal here.

Some late abortions are delivered alive. It's a problem.

Tates you may be rightk I guess I am just jaded after sevceral years of MN educating other people (ASD in my boys)

However if I felt someone needed methat would be different of course its the poointless arguing I despair of

Virtual LDC for jaded mners

seriously I think the support you guys give each other is amazing and a great testement to the good that is found on MN.

LOL, in an internet kind of way - there's a UK mailing list for parents of children with DS, and her and I have been on that for years and years. Also, when the Eastenders DS story came out a couple of years ago we were in a few newspapers articles together so chatted over that too.

haven't read the whole thread - but re euthanasia for severely disabled. The whole idea is repugnant. As someone said above - there is a huge spectrum of disabilities, who would be responsible for drawing hte line between who had a "worthwhile" life and who hadn't?

Thanks Tatters

with regards to terminations, I always wonder how many mums would choose not to have one for disability if they could experience te realities of life ith a disabled child, or get high level support input?

I feel certain many women would choose differently if they just had confidence in theor own abilities to parent, and confidence is something that can be given.