To think that maybe people should be a little more thoughtful before posting hurtful comments about children with special needs/disabilities.

[wrinklytum]

Grr.

Had a bad day and maybe a little oversensitive.

First and foremost,they are children.

And they are loved.

agreed fio. Plus where do we draw the line at what is a burden on the nhs? Maybe we should introduce forced euthanasia for the terminally ill too? after all any treatments aren't going to cure them, so better to have them put down than spend precious resources on prolonging their suffering? .

Wannabe, you would prefer someone was forced to have a baby they couldn't cope with?
I don't know the statistics on how severly disabled a fetus is when people choose to terminate but I don't think it would be for blindness, deafness or anything very mild. (I am ttrying to say this carefully and apologise if it still offends) If downs syndrome was apparent (not sure if you know how badly child is affected before birth) some may just see a child who can become an independent adult and others will see a life sentence of care, both are valid.

I agree, a lot of opinions are born out of ignorance. I don't know anything about climate change, really, but I hold opinions about it. They may be wrong, muddle-headed opinions, and more information may help me change them.

But I have the right to have those opinions, and to express them, as long as I acknowledge other people's right to challenge me on them, usually by providing more information that I previously had.

I agree with Tatterdemalion - thread deletion is not the answer.

Does anyone really, who has any understanding or knowledge, of the life of a severely disabled person really believe their lives should be terminated? Perhaps we could start with serial paedophiles and rapists first???

pp no my reference to the choice was more related to euthanasia being an option post birth which is what some people think should happen.

As it happens I think that no-one really knows what they can cope with until they have to, and it is common knowledge for instance that children with DS do often grow into adults capable of independent living, and yet 92% of pregnancies where downs is predetected are terminated, so obviously the majority don't share that view.

I think there are just too many tests, and scans, and options now tbh. I do not think that a disabled baby should be allowed to be terminated past 24 weeks. I don't see why disability makes that life less worthwhile than that of a non disabled fetus, and by stating that pregnancies with disabled babies can be terminated up till term just reiterates that the life of a disabled baby is considered less worthwhile than that of a non disabled one.

You see someone disagree with you so you report it to mumsnet "waaa!!! I don't think they should be allowed to have that opinion" and when that fails you start another thread to whine that "people don't think the same as me! it shouldn't be allowed"

If you disagree and are adult then go discuss it with them and maybe you or they will change their mind in time. Perhaps you will find a middle position that you both can live with.

There are lots of opinions on MN that I find offensive, but I don't try to have them banned.

As far as my pro choice opinion goes I think 22 weeks should be the cut off, unless the mother's life is threatened. You're right you don;t know what you can/cannot cope with until you have to.

so grey do you believe that i should be entitled to come on here and post that I think that apartheid was an excellent idea, and that blacks should be segrigated from the whites, given inferiour houses and where possible shipped back to their own countries, and that this shouldn't be challenged because I am entitled to my opinion? despite the fact that said opinion is highly offensive, and racist? I do not hold the view stated above...

the problem with openly stating your opinion is that it can be very offensive to others. fine if you believe in your ignorance that the disabled should be drowned at birth then i suppose there's not much one can do to change that, except of course if you find out that your lovely 1/2/3 year old has a severe disability then you might not be so keen , but what people are forgetting is that the people they are so voiciforously opinionating about don't have the ability to come on here and speak up for themselves and tell you how much they really don't want to die. It's left to the people who love them the most, the people who would lay down their own lives for those children, to come on here and defend the reasons why those children exist.

That's what I find acceptable.

Everyone as a right to an opinion, but imo you shouldn't have the right to express it regardless of the consequences.

posieparker, i belive there was a case of few years ago about a late termination because of a cleft palate

unacceptable

Who said "that this shouldn't be challenged" I agree with challenge, just not with running to the teacher and saying "don't let him say that because I disagree with it"

If we get to ban everything we find offensive then the whole religious section would go. I find religion extremely offensive.

Personally I'd prefer abortion to avoid later suffering, but that's just my opinion.

As for the whole "apartheid was an excellent idea" I think people should be able to to say that. Then people could tear holes in their arguments and 1000s of lurkers would learn just why it wasn't a good idea. See? that's how it works.

Misdee, yes I remember an argument I had with someone saying it was rubbish and then reading it was true.
Posting that you would kill a child with SN on public forum where many women with children with SN is quite vile and lacks compassion, actually it's more blatantly insulting and cruel.

i agree with wannabe, though i'd personally make an eception for babies with eg anencephaly or non compatibke with life disorders. i would choose to continue pregnancy but understand perfectly why others wouldnt.

so many disablities are either detected or sustained so long after birth- where's the cut off?

the only thing that stops any of us being disabled tomorrow is luck / the good grace of god / whatever you call it.

op yanbu. perhaps just the tiniest proportion on mn users need to consider their definition of a life worth living?

and the education issue- there's no point. most people whose education is lacking in this area dont listen, and even when they do all that happens is that another 15 join thinking the same thing and its endless.

PS, But I think that hat person then gets the full wrath of MN posters and maybe learns a bit, rather then them never saying it.

I disagree with crocs wearing but would not run to eacher as it is put

I am hurt and offended by people placing value judgements of the validity of a childs right to life- that's a very different thing.

My opinion is that euthanasia says more about our inability or unwillingness to provide care for the vulnerable, weak and ill, than about their life's worth. When I say we, I talk about our society in general. I cannot say how extremely repulsive I find the opinion that some lives are more worthy than others.

If we base our decision on whether a disabled life is worth living or not by measuring their "quality of life", we'll find that 2 people with the same disabilities will have different quality of life depending on whether they are loved and well-cared for or not. I mean, part of their "quality of life" depends on us as society and on the people around them, their family and friends.
Is it right then to condemn a disabled person to death because our inability to deal with their circumstances?

Euthanasia is a different issue to abortion for most though, right? Or are we muddling the two together My own clarity needed, that's all.

yes, posie, I was referring to the opinions on euthanasia that sparked the controversy in the telly addicts abortion thread which in turn caused this thread. Both things have been muddled up.

Yes but what if you find out you are pregnant, and you find out that child has a disability, and what if YOU DON'T WANT THAT CHILD?
Whatever the arguements are of disabled lives being valued less than able bodied lives, does anyone really think that forcing a mother to continue a pregnancy that she doesn't want is the right thing?
Is it right to be born to a mother who resents you before you have even been born and wishes she could have terminated but wasn't allowed.

If a woman doesn't want her child she should not be forced into having it - that goes for rape, disability,her crappy social circumstances anything

If we generaly agree in society that it is valid to abort becuase of a disability (say Downs Syndrome) then we are really stating that the life of the person with that disability is not as important or valid or of as good qulaity as a person without a disability.

We then want to conveniently ignore the meassge inherent in this view and then accept that once they are born their lives are as imporant/valid/of as good quality as others.

This is infact logically inconsistent and intellectaully lazy. If we view thier ife as less imporatnt before they born then it is less imporatnt once they are borm too. We just adjust our morality then to make us feel more comforatble and try to ignore the inconsitency inherent in our 'choice' society.

As I said those who say disabled poeple have poor life quality are just being consistent with the choices many make when preganant.

These opinions will always persist whilst we exercise choice to abort disabled children, it's inbtellctually logcial, if abhorrent to many of us.

sorry,
appears abortion/ euthanasia debate getting confused.

It is totally inacceptable for anyone to make hurtful comments about a child with any kind of disability.

My first son was stillborn at 30 weeks. But we did have to make a decision before he was born and one of the choices was a termination (I despise that word) I was admitted with severe pre-eclampsia, but instead of delivering our baby, they proceeded to perform many many tests on me and him. The outcome was that he would be severly disabled, mentally and physically, would need a heart op shortly after birth which they were sure he wouldn't survive. He was also supposed to be very small for dates. Now, this was the hardest decision I have ever had to make. I wanted hold my baby until he passed away peacefully, but they wouldn't allow it, instead saying that they would have to stick tubes down him etc. As he no doubt would have died anyway, I didn't want his final moments to be like that, so we did opt for termination.

I was 19 at the time, very naive when it came to hospitals/doctors etc and as they felt this was best, thats what we went for. In hindsight, I would have chosen differently.

He died before the termination anyway (not that I knew this as I was heavily sedated and went through labour believing I had allowed them to kill my baby)

PM results showed that there wasn't actually anything wrong with him and we were told that had he been delivered when I first arrived in hospital the chances are he would have been ok.

However, had he not, I still would have loved him with all my heart and still do, even though he isn't here.

If I had been told he had DS when I was 20 weeks I wouldn't have terminated and i would certainly never ever say that someone should have terminated their baby if it was found that things weren't 'perfect'

Having been in this situation, I know how utterly soul destroying it is to be told there is something wrong with your child and any decisions you make are not light ones by any means. They are still your children and still very wonderful.

I haven't read the other thread so apologies if I am waffling.

Inacceptable unacceptable