To think that maybe people should be a little more thoughtful before posting hurtful comments about children with special needs/disabilities.

[wrinklytum]

Grr.

Had a bad day and maybe a little oversensitive.

First and foremost,they are children.

And they are loved.

I think one has to respect their right to have an opinion.

the old 'I don't agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it' thing.

by all means argue with them, challenge them, vote against them, try and persuade them otherwise, but don't suppress them.

otherwise we're getting in censorship.

Depends who is drawing the line in the sand doesn't it - I presume that is the problem - people disagreeing with where we draw our own personal lines on these issues and then having the gall to say it out loud!

Not sure Notabanana - think it makes you very brave though.

I don't a child with particular special needs (in the accepted sense of the phrase) so I have no idea what kind of pleasures in life he/she might have. I tend therefore not to judge whether that life is worthwhile or not.

Neither, NAB, it makes you a person who did what she felt was right. As we did when we chose not to continue with a pregnancy at 20 weeks for medical reasons.

Each person does/believes what they think is right for THEM. And I would defend to the last their right to decide what is right for them.

twinkie that is so sad. your poor sister.
but that is not what we were talking about. of course in that situation there sadly is no choice.

LMD - but the opinions posted aren't really anyone deciding whats right for them are they, they aren't in that situation and therefore they're trying to decide whats right for someone else.

yanbu of course.

And what pisses me off in particular is that the second poster on that thread apparently has a disability herself so should bloody well know better.

And no, I don't see why people like fio and 2shoes and others with children with severe disabilities should spend their lives educating the ignorant. And that's what people like that are, ignorant.

Also I refuse to believe that any of these comments just slip out. This is a website where you have the ability to read and re-read every post before you post it so there is absolutely no excuse for posting something like that. none.

"and I do think that there are some lives which on any standard, just aren't worth living because they are full of pain, immobility and abandonment in some institution"

if people think these kind of comments are ok then i give up.

Many people have tests at 20 weeks to decide whether or not their baby is healthy, soe decide they just would like to be prepare and others decide whether or not to terminate with bad news, it's always goingto be controversial but these are rights of mothers and I'm please we have those rights. To compare those choices with the love a mother has for their SN child is quite ridiculous. If threads are started or contain topics I find deeply offensive I won't read or join in.
Notabanana, it means you made a choice that was available to you.

Kewcumber - I think that's where it all goes wrong. When expressing an opinion, it can only be about what you personally would do in that situation.

But are they really saying 'I think YOU should do this' or are they saying 'I think this option should be available and it's up to you to choose'? Cause I think there's a difference.

I haven't read the original thread, as it would take most of the day!

I must just point something out.
my dd was dx at 10 months and that is early! even then the docs could not say how she would be affected. that didn't really show up untill she was about 2.
so we are talking about murdering toddlers in a lot of cases.

FioFio - I agree, suggesting forcing anything on someone is completely wrong, whether euthanasia or something else.

I have worked in a children's hopsice with kids/ young adults with the type of disabilities that I believe are being discussed here and out of the many many children who came for respite I can honestly say that none of them were without any quality of life whatsoever.

On the outside it looks like a hard/ difficult life for a child but even the most profoundly disabled can take pleasure in a light movement, a sound, a feeling, human contact etc.....most can give some sort of a response as well be that a ghost of a smile, a flicker in the eye or a moment of calm.

I believe that just because people have these thoughts doesn't mean they are right. The most thoughtless and hurtful are generally the most ignorant, inexperienced when it comes to disabilities.

Depends when you think the right to life kicks in doesn't it, at conception or at birth or at 24 weeks!

Personally (and I think all we can ever do is speak for ourself) I feel it is up to each person to decide what they want to DO, I would not be without my children and thankfully the SN we have is minor.
However if someone had of said when I was having either of my children this child will never do this or that, have no quailty of life, die young and suffer then I would have given a lot of thought as to carrying on whit the pregnancy or not.

Is is a personal choice and a differant one for each person.

I wiuld never advice a friend to have a termanation but I would respect their choice if they did.

It's all way too personal and is more emotional for those who would not terminate or euthaniase (never even heard anyone ever thinking that that would be an option before). By that I mean if you think you can choose to terminate then you are probably not associating the fetus with a 'valuable' life at 20 weeks ( although I would imagine women who make that choice do it woth a very heavy heart) But those who oppose that right do it from a point of firm beliefs that that is murder.
Those who are pro-choice, like myself, should step carefully whilst in the company of people who are pro-life as their emotions are far more involved. Although that does not negate the valid arguments about w woman's choice.

wannabe I just wanted to comment on this post

"And no, I don't see why people like fio and 2shoes and others with children with severe disabilities should spend their lives educating the ignorant. And that's what people like that are, ignorant."

You are right of course, in that mn should be an environment for support, but of course the reality is very different.

MN is exactly the sort of place where posters hiding behind nicknames, sitting in the confines of their own homes will post the most absurd, outrageous and offensive claptrap. You are never going to change the nature of (this particular) beast.

And of course how do you combat ignorance?... well through education. I'm sure that sounds horribly sanctimonious, and I really do feel for 2shoes and fio (and the other countless amazing women) who time and again have to come and stand their corners. But what other options are there? I'm afraid that I don't see how thread deletion is the answer.

There?s a vast difference between choosing to terminate a pregnancy because your baby has a condition incompatible with life and murdering a two year old post diagnosis.

I also disagree with the centiment that it should be up to each individual to make that choice, because what to one is a child who will grow into an adult capable of living an independent and fulfilled life, is a severely disabled child with no quality of life to someone else. And that goes as much for minor disabilities as severe ones.

I am blind and have been since birth. And although my parents never stopped me doing anything, brought me up to be independent, my mother has this thing about disability. She feels it is wrong to bring disabled children into the world, and she definitely didn?t want any more children just in case they were disabled. So when she fell pregnant when I was 7, she did what she thought was the right thing to do and had a termination. So I wonder, if euthanasia for the disabled was available, I wonder would she have had me put down? no quality of life issues here, but not everyone sees it that way do they?

I just want to say to the op YANBU. Of course posters should be more thoughtful, sadly it does not always happen.

Everyone has a right to an opinion and by using a 'discussion' forum you will in time be bound to be upset by someone else's opinion, whether that is related to this highly emotive topic or something less serious. I have to say I think it is a hazard of this board. For religious beliefs,I believe everyone has a right to life, but I can totally empathise with some of the sad stories I have read here and in magazines etc where mothers have chosen to terminate .
Without freedom of speech where would be ?