Crime statistics by country of origin

[Zebedee999]

The government is proposing to publish crime statistics by country of origin.

A few weeks ago I mentioned some statistics from other European countries (and in fact the UK) showing that sex crimes against women by men of certain countries are 40 times those of the indigenous British. I got called racist (the stats are by country not race) and of course the stats were removed as racist.

Personally I think women's safety should be the overriding priority and such statistics should be used as part of a process to determine who can move to the UK. Why allow in men who statistically will carry out 40 times the sex crimes of the indigenous population? Let in women by all means.

I am genuinely interested why my view is racist when to me it is simply prioritising women's safety. AIBU to want immigration processes to prioritise women's safety?

They can do both - in that, that level of data is recorded when a Suspect is taken into Police custody (and then later charged, convicted etc).
Dual nationals UK / something else are recorded as such.
Routine 'foreign national' data enables Police Forces to do background checks with those other countries as well as against the UK Police databases to check for prior convictions, re-calls to Prison etc.
Country of birth is not the same as nationality in that UK nationals could have been born anywhere. The main emphasis initially on arrest is accessing info from other countries as to any murky (or not past).

This isn't in itself sinister - but can be manipulated as such by certain elements in this country!

The main problem with the way that you have framed this is that you are deliberately excluding the grooming gangs that are run by white, black, Chinese, Albania, Indian etc etc men.
You've taken out all of the Christian church rapists, people like Jimmy savile, etc.
The last stats showed that there was an overrepresentation of Asian men and black men but that Asian carried out 14% of the abuse. 42% white men.

There are multiple issues about the failure of these sorts of crimes being either reported or acted upon. The specific failure of the grooming gangs not being tackled in Rochdale and Oldham etc is race specific and does need to be discussed.

Public school boys have been raped for decades, as have children in children's homes, as have musicians and public figures used their status in order to get away with hideous rapes forever.

I think it would also be very useful to understand who the victims of these crimes are. There is massively a class issue going on. Obviously public schools are the exception to the rule but when it comes to girls it really does tend to be working class girls you have had the brunt of the abuse carried out upon them. Probably because they were seen as "slags" and up for it etc etc. and because they didn't the power to push for justice.

Within certain cultures as well there is definitely even bigger issue towards how women are treated and perceived. Society is currently not helping this perception through the easy availability of porn, and figures like Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson getting so much love.

Sadly if a party like reform get in they will do fuck all to help the working class girls who are subject to this sort of abuse. The policies will end up harming the poor and the working class more than anyone. They will probably go around closing all rape crisis centers and counseling support as being wishy washy middle class bollocks. Or something and their anti-inclusion policies will definitely not support these girls. the rhetoric is likely to also stir up further racial tension and all this will do will fuel fire into pre-conceptions that different cultures have of each other. This in turn will lead to more violence and abuse.

Quite

Very good point.

So the left and centrists should then step up with a meaningful analysis of VAWG across the board instead of the current misogyny hidden under token ideas of social justice against racism, trans rights, whatever other bullshit they can hide behind to shit all over women and girls

i am absolutely furious about the abandonment of women and girls on all sides of politics

I think what will be interesting to see - and a reason I am optimistic- is that women in Britain have far greater economic, political and legal power than they have ever had (although obvs and quite clearly there is still fundamental oppression) -
so more to fight with. Rowling and her financial backing has been crucial and is a key example of this. But even on the ground women have more resources to fight back with.

but it also needs to be looked at globally - the push back against women and girls is happensing globally - radical Islam is an obvious and major threat - but quite obviously in the Christian USA there are also huge threats.

so we have two challenges - domestic and international

and I tell you what won’t help any of this - letting in deeply traumatised men who are statically more likely to be sexually violent towards women and girls

I work in crime and am very happy to say through my observations there are most definitely non-white groups which are far less likely to commit a crime, or certain types of crime, compared to white Brits (Chinese, Japanese, Filipino - very rarely in the dock). My anecdata is that black men are also highly unlikely to commit CSA, or engage in illegal CSA online activity. Obviously that’s just my observations; stats may prove otherwise.

So this really isn’t a case of ‘white people are inherently good people who commit far less crimes than foreigners’ - it’s assessing whether nationality/religion etc makes a certain type of offence more likely and addressing why, by seizing the bull by its horns no matter how uncomfortable that makes the liberal left.

And to add to this YES this includes white people. White Brits, and other white nationalities - broadly speaking - have far higher alcohol intake or alcohol abuse issues and therefore are more likely to commit acts of random aggression, or drink driving and so on. This isn’t racist, it’s fact.

We cannot shy away from criminal patterns due to ethnicity, and I bet you have no problems acknowledging the above

Exactly.

It is mind boggling that on this thread some women have said that even if men from certain countries do 40% more SA per capita than existing British people then men from those countries should still be allowed in. Why?

Immigration should be about improving the country (much as the Aussies do), instead we turn a blind eye to men from countries with different views on women that result in increased SA of women... and women are defending this situation!

Personally I'd only allow men in from countries that have lower SA and crime stats than the UK to drag this country's standards up a bit instead of downwards.

Why on earth do people on these sorts of threads pretend not to understand what 'British' means? Or say that we are 'mostly immigrants'? I mean I'm Welsh. The original Celtic Britons...how far back do I have to go to find an ancestor who walked here? Britain is largely still a really homogenous country with families that go back generations in the same areas. Until the 1960s you could pinpoint to within a couple of streets where somebody came from in the UK. So why do people come out with such crap?

Actually it is perfectly valid to have different rules for different nationalities (as in Citizenships). In the UK, Irish people have different immigration rules from other EU countries, who are different again from other nations.

If you are shouting racist because non citizens have no vote then that is a very fringe position.

Oh its to make excuses for violent men isn't it?

Australia also doesnr accept people with major health issues - regardless of whether they can demonstrate they can fund their healthcare themselves - because they are statically more likely to have a negative economic impact

@MiloMinderbinder925 do you think that is a human rights issue?

why is likely economic impact different to likely social impact?

Huge fan of favouring countries with lower VAWG stats

That's not what the poster was using as an example. They were using the Australian points based system to say that Australia discriminates.

I wasn't aware that race was part of their points based system. They don't racially profile potential workers and say that no men are allowed to enter.

People from Europe and Ireland have the same human rights irrespective of immigration rules.

Just watched a programme with Clive Anderson and anthropologist Mary-Ann Ochota. Many “indigenous” people came from Ukraine. The Picts were swamped by invading Vikings with their berserkers.

I’m as white as they come, fair skin, blonde hair but brown eyes. My 9 times great grandparents were black, from Jamaica.. Makes me laugh when people talk about Indigenous people.
Britain has been a melting pot since the first humans, with people all over the world just walking here from Doggerland.

I agree. But to blame the left is such rubbish we've had far more decades of right wing politics who have equally ignored the problem.

The issues that nobody really cared about raped women and girls. Nobody really does on the far right either apart from they've using it as a populist tool. I find this deeply sickening. As if Nigel farage genuinely cares about girls and women being raped. He just knows it's a way of getting votes. Vile man. He may prove me wrong and in the council they've taken over they may do a huge shift towards changing attitudes towards women, including much better inclusive policies. Supporting rape centres and re-education centres. But I think I'll be holding my breath for a very long time.

There needs to be a massive change in the way that women and girls are believed, hiw the court system works, health support for women suffering domestic violence is supported, how children who witness and grow up in violent homes are given support, how violent men are re-educated, how boys at school at taught about porn and the damages it causes and girls are taught to recognise that porn isn't related to normal sex. Given that on the right wing of the political spectrum at the moment we have figures like Andrew Tate in the fore I can't imagine the answers lie to the right.

oh no i don’t think the right will be any better - although i do think that increasingly what is in fact the centre is being called the right

But I think that the left is just leaving open goals

i also doubt Farage would do any better for wom and girls - well he might for middle class (maybe) but quite he is no friend of working class women and girls

i think fundamentally men need to accept that they have to relinquish power and control - and they really don’t want to do that - especially when it’s to do with physical violence. Why try and control other men’s physical violence when that might be the thing that you might want to use sometime to get your own way - domestically or in public life

OK this thread is now many pages long, and for me contains some confusion about what OP and other posters are wanting those statistics for? Is it to stop men from all Countries with high rates of rape and sexual assaults to enter the UK? Or only certain Countries?
My dh was born and brought up in a Country with far higher rates of rape, sexual assault and violent crime, than the UK. He came here in his mid 20s to work for the NHS. He has given 30 years service so far and gained a bit of a national name in his specialty, by hard bloody slog, and always going the extra mile for his patients. Should he never have been allowed into the UK? Because according to some posters he surely presents a threat to women and children?
To be honest the constant anti immigrant noise in this Country at the moment makes him feel so unwelcome that he wonders if he shouldn't have ever come.

If the stastics show that men from that country commit higher rates of vawg IN BRITAIN then yes my position would be that your husband should not be allowed in.

not fair for your husband from his individual perspective - but it’s a risk analysis at a group level and not and individual level.

so say out of ten men allowed in, five men are likely to commit VAWG (these stats made up for illustration purposes). That sucks for the five men who wouldn’t - but it stops five women from being subject to sexual violence.

but as said - in Australia he might not be allowed in. Because he’s not a plumber.

theres lots of countries I can’t move to for all sorts of reasons - age being an obvious one. Sucks for me - but not unreasonable of those countries.

I prioritize minimising risks to women and girls of sexual violence over the rights of non British men to live here

i would in fact advocate for discrimination in favour of women and girls, especially for asylum claims (where 75% of applicants are male)

I am afraid this in inarticulate nonsense and this is why.

According to data provided by the Ministry of Justice in response to Freedom of Information requests and published in March of this year-a very different official picture is provided.

That is official, as opposed to a barely coherent post by an anonymous user of an online forum.

The data showed this: foreign nationals account for up to 23% of sex crime convictions in the UK, despite making up less than 10% of the population.

Two particular nationalities stood out in these figures. The two nationalities were:
a) Afghans, who are 22% more likely than British citizens to be convicted of a sex crime and b) Eritreans, who are slightly behind.

Yes, unpalatable to take on board but denying them does no service to the safety of women or girls.

I hesitate to mention the Pakistani Rape Gangs, who are mostly made up of men who are Pakistani or who have Pakistani heritage-as the Deputy leader of the House of Commons feels that to mention it is merely a boring old dog whistle.

So there are you are!

Would it be foolish to say no white British man commits rape or any sexual crime? It would be beyond stupid to claim this, just as it is beyond stupid to deny that certain groups, as highlighted by the official data are more likely to do so.

If you are a woman @MyOliveHelper do not put the warm glow of being right on above the safety of your fellow women, by refusing to accept that some nationalities-as shown by official data-are more likely to commit a sex crime. It hovers very closely to the stench of a rape apologist.

Men of all nations commit sex crimes-as every woman knows-but some are more likely to than others.

But I also would say that I think that in practice rules never need to be this blunt - eg greater citizenship education requirements, greater oversight and monitoring in the community, etc etc

but as this thread shows - disingenuous claims of racism push people to take blunter positions that don’t allow for nuance

this is how people end up voting for Farage - because they get called racist for raising reasonable concerns and the only one who acknowledges that they are reasonable concerns is Farage - who then gets a mandate that is fare more extreme than people actually want

@MissyB1 Please don't take any notice of swivel eyed racists. Your son is of course welcome in the country and we're very thankful for all his work at the NHS which wouldn't exist without immigration.

And as if on cue…

I imagine it's blurred.

And it’s her husband not her son.

@MyOliveHelper is the one desperately worried that adult sons might be held accountable and deported for being rapists.