New councillor wants to stop 'free mixing' between men and women

[SeaSwim5]

Independent candidate Maheen Kamran has been elected in Burnley.

As well as support for Gaza, her manifesto included a pledge to encourage public spaces to end free mixing of men and women.

"Muslim women aren't really comfortable being involved with Muslim men. I'm sure we can have segregated areas, segregated gyms."

Is this a sensible approach and important for inclusivity? It's notable that many anti-Trans activists advocate the importance of single-sex spaces.

However, some have raised concerns about the growing sectarian nature of UK politics.

Should we be looking to reduce 'free mixing' between men and women and create more single sex spaces?

Oh bore off with the tedious poor oppressed Scots nonsense. The Scots were as happy to be involved in the Empire as any one else.

[And yes I am Scottish]

I just gave you a clear explanation of how the UK does have a state religion, and your response was to simply reassert yourself.

You're like the black knight who insists his arm hasn't been cut off, when it's very visibly lying on the ground in front of him.

So what’s your point? That we should bow down and accept this crap? No sooner have we sorted one issue out (trans and women’s spaces), but something else is now seeping in.

It is also utterly irrelevant to any debate - people only trot out the "christian country" bullshit when they are being racist.

Was it a women's changing room or mixed sex? Because if it was a women's changing room or course men need to stay out of it, regardless of whether it has cubicles or not. If it was mixed sex, then 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Things like libraries don't need to be single sex.

Maybe do some introspection and learn some basic history? That would be a start?

Women only / Men only nights at gyms and swimming pools used to be a thing ? Great idea.Like oap nights or sessions. Certain don't approve of religious segregation of course.

Not always, I like to remind people about it when they're moaning about not being able to go shopping on Christmas Day and Easter Sunday, despite celebrating those themselves.

@Smallmercies It is also utterly irrelevant to any debate - people only trot out the "christian country" bullshit when they are being racist.

It's not racist to make a statement of fact. People like you get confused between descriptive statements and opinions- the "is and ought" problem.

It is not racist to state the UK is a Christian country, just as it is not racist against black people to state that many black people were brought to western nations as slaves, nor is it bigoted against Irish people to state that millions of Irish people died during the famine. These are statements of fact and nothing more.

Thin edge of the wedge. Before you know it this councillor will want seperate spaces for Muslim and non-muslim men and women. Segregation is not a good thing. We already have swimming and gym sessions just for women in most areas, if there isn't enough then campaign for more not make it compulsory.

When I worked at a uni there were a couple of girls who wore the full burka and niqab. I didn’t teach them and assumed, rightly or wrongly, that it was their choice to wear it. With hindsight I wonder if that was the case. At the time I wanted to say to them that they were lucky to live in a country where they had the choice to wear it or not but I that I disagreed in principle with the idea that women should be obligated in some countries to hide their faces, bodies, feet and wrists. It’s as though women have no right to exist in the public domain. By fully covering when you are not obligated by law is endorsing the practice.So, no, I don, agree that civic space should be segregated at all.

Things to do with the body can be separate imo. I used to go to, and prefer, a women's gym. I notice that I don't do the movement properly if there are men in my yoga class. My PE lessons at school were also single sex.

Single sex restaurants and theatres are totally different and shouldn't be allowed imo.

Surely the key word here is public spaces? If she was talking about spaces where single sex provision can be appropriate that would be different, but IME there aren't many people (including the vast majority of ordinary decent muslims) who'd advocate for what's being proposed

I'd say it's perhaps more worrying that someone with such views was elected in the first place, but that would depend on whether she was open about what she wanted beforehand and I honestly don't know that

@IHaveAlwaysLivedintheCastle the Church of Scotland does have the status of the “National” Church of Scotland although there is debate as to whether it’s established. Whether or not the Church has schools is immaterial to this.

People are people and if you don’t want to see people - male people, Chinese people,Jewish people, blind people, young people, whatever, then stay at home.

If private facilities like beauty salons, spas or gyms want to open only to men or women, no problem.

I wonder if we live in the same area. This is a regular thing where I am.

As has been pointed out to you, England is not the UK.
Wales has no official church and it's a different one in Scotland.

However, Anglican bishops do sit in the House of Lords so can influence laws, which I find wrong, but then the whole premise of the House of Lords is wrong.

There is a women only gym in my town, it has been there for a ling time. I used to go to a women only gym session in a council gym in the early 90s. At university in the 80s we had a Women's Common Room. I'm not in favour of enforced segregation in public spaces but I would not be in favour of not allowing these things for those that want them either.

You're simply wrong. The UK does not have a state religion. The concept of a "UK state religion" applying to Scotland is at best just ignorant and at worst really quite offensive in its ignorance.

I'm not some one who gets worked up about Scottish nationalism- very far from it, actually, but you're spouting nonsense.

@SeaSwim5

It is really instructive that you regard measures taken to protect c. 50% of the population (women and girls) from predatory men as being anti-trans. In fact, the UK, women and girls are actually slightly in the majority but somehow our rights and interests are regarded as somehow niche and generally irrelevant.

Women and girls are, as a result of their biology, generally weaker and slower than men and less able to fight off a predatory male. We also have experiences, as a result of growing up female, that we don’t always want to share in front of people who didn’t grow up in a female body.

This ruling is to protect the female slightly-more-than-half of the population when they are in states of undress or vulnerability (DV shelters, toilets, changing rooms, hospitals, accessing rape crisis support).

However, in the minds of the trans activists, this is not about women and girls. Oh no. It’s a ruling designed to get at those born male who have decided they deserve access to women only spaces. That’s a pretty niche identity but it’s a male one and therefore their rights trump those of half the population who have very real reasons to fear violence from predatory men. Violence which has, btw, also been inflicted by trans-rights activists. These issues just don’t arise with transmen; the activism for transwomen has sadly just become another conduit for male abuse of women.

Because of the entitlement, vicious hostility and verbal, psychological and physical violence which has been inflicted on women trying to protect women-only spaces, I have lost most of my sympathy for transwomen. The only transwomen I trust now are those (and there are some) who recognise that those born female do need their own protected spaces for changing rooms etc. They are the ones who are actually behaving like women rather than men.

Maybe they should address this issue with the Muslim men rather than accepting their behaviour as normal.

The Church of England is England's state church; the Church of Scotland is Scotland's national church.

You know what I mean.

I don’t think we need to segregate (though women only exercise sessions can be good and we need to keep necessary single sex spaces) but this isn’t about the behaviour of Muslim men. It’s about a religious view that women and men (of whatever religion or behaviour) shouldn’t mix.

Fair enough if she means hospital wards - not ok if she means supermarkets

@IHaveAlwaysLivedintheCastle You're simply wrong. The UK does not have a state religion.

The head of the Church of England is the monarch.
The law in the UK states that the monarch must be a protestant (yes, really) descendant of Sophia of Hanover.

Please explain to me how there is no state religion when the monarch, by law, has to be a protestant, and the monarch is the head of the Church of England?

The concept of a "UK state religion" applying to Scotland is at best just ignorant and at worst really quite offensive in its ignorance.

Scotland is not a sovereign nation, which is why Holyrood cannot hold an independence referendum without permission from Westminster.

The king is the king of the United Kingdom, so indeed any state religion in the UK is also applicable to Scotland.

None of this should be offensive because I have only made statements of fact. Facts cannot be offensive. I have not given any of my own opinions on the state religion in the UK.