To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

But we all lend and borrow, certainly Christians do and Muslims have ways around so you don't pay interest, but there is money paid. And I haven't noticed that Jews charge more interest than non-Jews. Now good old loan sharks (many of them probably nominally Christian in the UK) charge a fortune.

The Spanish inquisition torturing and killing non-believers (or almost anyone they didn't like), in the name of Christianity, the crusades killing the barbarians, who often seemed to be more moral than the Christians. Catholics persecuting Protestants and visa versa. All terribly good and kind don't you think?

Atheists successfully live their lives without a Christian anchor or map.

This is where the OP's argument falls apart from my perspective. I am yet to see any evidence that would suggest that Christianity produces morally superior behaviour at either an individual or a societal level.

What is the benefit of a map or anchor that makes no difference to how people behave? Is it merely to give some the right to assert their claim to moral authority or what?

I started listening to the debate that the OP posted a couple of pages back, as well as a shorter Tom Holland interview, which is where I think the OP is drawing heavy inspiration from (he too uses the "swim in the waters" turn of phrase).

He (an atheist) is essentially arguing that Christianity's advent was the pivotal moment in shaping Western moral values and discourse, going forwards, to the extent that even non-Christians' moral analysis is rooted in Christian values.

In its most basic, I think that he's essentially saying that concepts of universal human rights are borne from Judeo Christian philosophy.

I do think Christianity helped develop and popularise that notion (which is a departure from the Roman culture then prevelant) and it is certainly quite possible that, absent Christianity, European moral views may have turned out quite differently.

That said, I do think there were suggestions/flickers (say, Stoicism, or the Cyrus Cylinder) that discourse concerning morality was heading in that direction.

Of course, I do think that for much of Christianity's history, it has failed quite spectacularly to live up to these purported ideals, and I think its trite to say that, since Christianity played a big role in developing and popularising the notion of equality, that all subsequent moral discourse is inherently Christian to an extent. If that's the position we are to accept, then I think the OP would have to concede that things she does not like (seemingly, euthanasia and gender-affirming care) are also rooted in Christianity.

I'm not sure we can fully describe Holland as an atheist - there's quite a distance between his position and the atheism held by the majority on this thread. But, nonetheless, he's not a committed theist yet either.

"discourse concerning morality was heading in that direction." Likely yes. But with various trajectories over centuries or even millenia, hard to say.

"Of course, I do think that for much of Christianity's history, it has failed quite spectacularly to live up to these purported ideals" yes, this is very clearly the case, however I would challenge anyone to name any institution (let alone this size and age) which hasn't been corrupted. As Ivan Illich said, the corruption of the best of all is the worst of all. Just because Judas turned his back on Christ doesn't mean I have to aswell.

"If that's the position we are to accept, then I think the OP would have to concede that things she does not like (seemingly, euthanasia and gender-affirming care) are also rooted in Christianity." I have heard this argument, that "woke" is a natural outgrowth from Christian principles. But I'm not sure... other than a perverted conception of 'equality', why has this been latched on to, and distorted beyond any recognition from its original meaning and why has it been uncouple from other principles which have been abandoned like the sanctity of human life?

I think they don't realise how much they benefit from living at the apex of a civiliansation that was built on Christianty and until very recently has been running on Christian software. To me these happy atheists are like roadrunner who has just run off the edge of the cliff and hasn't yet realised there is nothing beneath their feet. Where are we going as a civilisation? Where are we pointed? What are we orienting ourselves towards? Where will we be in 10/20/50/100 years

Life is good as an atheist - no religious rules and regulations. There is nothing I would change about my life. Feet firmly planted on the ground

I don't doubt the influences of Christian thought on our moral philosophy here in the West. But I haven't observed cultures built on the foundations of Christian morality to be uniquely "moral" in comparison with those which have been built on different foundations altogether, so if it hadn't been Christianity that was dominant in the West, then I'm sure that something else would have been driving the development of our ethics and morality instead, as in other parts of the world.

You talk about our society having run "on Christian software" until recently, and you seem to believe that we're in a downward trajectory from a moral perspective, driven by people drifting away from Christianity. But I don't think you have told us yet when you think Christian morality was at its peak, and what was so much better about society during that period?

Hope you don't mind me jumping in with something loosely related@BlossomBlanket but I wanted to reply to a pp who asked about evidence for Jesus being the Messiah.

I haven't the time to go into it fully and there's so much it would fill up the rest of the thread! So I'll try to summarise:

Reason number 1. Because Jesus said He was.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Reason 2. The resurrection.

Reason 3. Jesus performed many miracles, including raising people from the dead.
first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote this in AD 93-94.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Reason 4. Jesus fulfilled many Old Testament prophecies, written hundreds of years before His birth, for example.

He was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

He was born of a virgin (Isaiah 7)

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

He is from the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)

He is a descendant of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-16)

He performed these miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6)

Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.

The crucifixion (Psalm 22)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
...All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
...Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

The crucifixion (Isaiah 53)

He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering,yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way;and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth...

The resurrection (Psalm 16:8-11)

I keep my eyes always on the Lord. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken.

Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure,

because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

And many more...

Edited for typos.

Everything that capitalism is robbing us of. We are lonely, isolated, anxious, depressed, we're porn addled, SSRI addicted, miserable and at each others throats.

Edited to add - look around you anywhere you go. The older the building, the more beautiful, churches, hospitals, schools, town halls, the newer the uglier. Because all that matters now is the bottom line. Ugly advertising and depressing building replaces beauty.

So when exactly were things better in your view?

You do realise that virgins can’t give birth????

Maybe there were no single golden age, but lots of things were better, at different times. It seems they're all getting worse now. But I would happily swap lives with either sets of my grandparents. And I look at my children and wish their childhoods weren't going to be blighted by smartphones and snapchat nudes and skincare recommendations for 9 year olds.

I’m none of these - nor is anyone I know

We are lonely, isolated, anxious, depressed, we're porn addled, SSRI addicted, miserable and at each others throats.

Why are you letting your children Snapchat nudes?

They don't have smartphones but they go to school with children who do.

You don't know anyone with mental health issues or who are on anti depressants?

No one.

How old are your DC’s?

I definitely wouldn’t swop with my grandparents - they lived under the occupation. They were pleased that future generations have enjoyed a much better life

That's quite remarkable

So... things used to be much better back in the day, but you're not quite sure when? That's a bit too vague for my liking.

My own view is a bit different. Yes, I see a lot of problems in our modern society, but I think every society has its problems. I don't think we're any less "moral" than we used to be. And for all that people feel much more able to talk about their mental health more freely these days, I don't believe that we're actually any less happy on average than previous generations were.

I guess another way in which we differ is that I definitely wouldn't want to swap place with any of my grandparents. I'd take my life over theirs without any shadow of a doubt. And I am very optimistic for my dd's future as well... there will be challenges, of course, but she knows how to manage her own mental health effectively and she is very good at building a supportive community around herself.

I'm sorry, though, that you are struggling with so much anxiety about the future. It's good that you find some comfort in your faith and hopefully in the church community.

I do know people who take medication for anxiety and depression.

I also know how much those medications would have benefited some of my family members in previous generations who struggled terribly with their mental health but lived through an age when it was taboo to talk about such things.

Many scientists say that the "brain chemical imbalance" theory is completely unevidenced, and that the effect of SSRIs compared to placebos are "modest", yet - I wonder what proportion of people here who demand facts and evidence subscribe fully to mental health issues being cause by chemical imbalances which are corrected with drugs