To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

I'm going to expand on this.

Some of the most influential moral philosophers in Europe (Socrates, Plato and Aristotle) pre-dated Christianity and their influence helped shape Christian morality.

St Thomas Aquinus and St Augustine - two of the most influential moral philosophers within Christianity, respectively drew heavily on Aristotlean and Platonic philosophy.

If you were familiar with the history and substance of Christian moral philosophy, there's no way you'd deny the impact of Non-Christian, including pre-Christian, ethics in shaping "Christian values".

After 2000 years? Can you direct me to where scripture contradicts what I've said Catholicism says about women?

I don't really include other branches of Christianity in this, apart from Orthodox, but I think branches of Christianity which are trying to mirror this current time, place, and culture are doing so from an already desacralised religion and to stem rapid losses from their congregations, its clearly not working.

Christ's message was one of radical equality, putting the weakest first, railed against the dominant religious establishment and was literally crucified for it. We could go on for days about this, and by all means I'm happy to hear evidence to counter my views. Tom Holland highlights the revolutionary messages Christ brought - that it is better to suffer than to cause suffering, that every single human has equal value and dignity and the last must be first, and that the first shall be last. And that he was a divine figure, tortured to death like a criminal. This was against the Roman Empire, which really did have different norms. Can you provide any evidence that Jesus was somehow a Jonny come lately to the equality party in the Mediterranean at that time?

Plato was very hierarchical and believed the best should breed with the best and that people had differing souls, bronze gold and silver which dictated whether they were best suited to ruling or plebdom. So plenty was scrapped. But everyone should read The Republic - I would say this shaped Christianity's metaphysics more than its values which came through Aristotle.

If you had been following the thread you would have realised I have been trying to encourage posters to consider if their values sit within a single moral framework, or flit between them, implying that they really are just intuitions, rather than anything coherent or grounded in any aim towards objectivity. Neither Kantianism or consequentialism emerged, but I had hoped we might have been able to have a discussion about virtue ethics. That Christianity takes the best of these thinkers is fine by me, but I don't think any of these Greeks had particular followings or influence in the wider culture, particularly in the Roman Empire.

What does "being true to oneself" mean?

Again with asking a lot of questions but not answering.

You accused me of having a litany of specific prohibitions you seem to want. And when I questioned what prohibitions I've asked for you've ignored me.

Being true to yourself just means being yourself. Living as yourself. So for example not using other people as a "shield" so you look like you're doing what's "expected" (eg, gay men marrying women to hide their sexuality and then blowing up said women's lives when they leave to be themselves. Just be yourself from day one.)

"Again with asking a lot of questions but not answering."

There have been dozens of questions, many unserious or from people who wouldn't understand the answer and I've been busy IRL and lost track - if you want to ask me something direct go for it and I will answer.

"You accused me of having a litany of specific prohibitions you seem to want. And when I questioned what prohibitions I've asked for you've ignored me."

I might have confused you with other posters who were implying Christ thinks rape is OK because he didn't specific prohibit it, despite it being impossible under wider demands.

"Being true to yourself just means being yourself. Living as yourself. So for example not using other people as a "shield" so you look like you're doing what's "expected" (eg, gay men marrying women to hide their sexuality and then blowing up said women's lives when they leave to be themselves. Just be yourself from day one.)"

I think we have very different conception of what the "self" is. I'm an older millenial and I don't see anyone in my generation, older or younger trying to conform to any idea of whats "expected" of us. We are very free and people live accordingly, I am trying to think of exceptions but I can't. Apart from same sex attraction, what other characteristics form ones "self"? For me - there are none that aren't 90% conditioned by our media saturated lives and the cultures in which we are born, brought up and find ourselves living in.

Bless you for thinking the fact you're an older millennial means you have a different view of the world to me. We're the same age. Clearly our different views of the world are down to how we were raised, what belief system was indoctrinated into us as children and so on.

Luckily for me, despite my mother's family having very strong religious views (a faith many consider quite extreme), she was kicked out of the church and my father refused to have us brought up believing in any of it, wanted to let us make up our own minds. Which means I can very clearly see that while there is many things we can't explain, and it would be arrogant to think there was nothing "bigger" than us, most religions are the same stories told differently. There's the differences in Gods and their names, a few different "values", but mostly, they're the same thing told differently.

And as for people of our generation not confirming to what's expected of them, I have no clue who you surround yourself with but I see many people struggling to "fit in" because they feel different to what society expects. Why do you think so many people undergo unnecessary cosmetic surgery? Or are in unhappy marriages? Or we see so many threads on here about how they had children and it's not what they thought.

It could be media. It could be upbringing. It could be religion. But so much impacts people's ideas of who they should be.

@BlossomBlanket just to add, wanting marital rape to be seen as wrong is not a "litany of prohibitions".

i've read it cover to cover actually.. have you?

i mean, there are loads of 'christian' values, depends which book you're taking them from.

Most of them aren't 'christian' actually.. the ones from the new testament, outside the apostle books are mostly Pauls teaching, which i don't agree with.. that man just decided what was right/wrong off his own back.

FTR, i'm a practising Witch, and my 'values' are Love the World, and Harm None... which covers a pretty wide area.

I interpreted non-christian values as values that are specifically the opposite of Christianity, or any organised religion really.

So,
I don't believe contraception is wrong, and I am mostly pro-choice when it comes to abortion
I'm not homophobic
I don't think IVF is a sin
I don't think virginity is a holy sacred thing
I don't think it's wrong to masterbate
I don't believe it's a sin to have a child out of wedlock, or think that children are born from original sin
I don't believe women should have to obey their husbands
I think divorce is OK if people are unhappy
I celebrate halloween (in a lighthearted way)
I don't literally put the fear of God into my children, as was done to me (Irish Catholic upbringing)
I don't talk to my child about heaven and hell but have explained life and death in a different way (similar to the way mufasa explains it to simba in the lion king)
And lastly I don't make my child go to church before he's allowed a Christmas present or an Easter egg😂

My main difference from Christianity;

Humanity is not above nature. We do do not have guardianship over other species. We are just part of nature, it's as simple as that. Eco vs Ego!

“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of - 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.'

from God Bless You, Mr Rosewater

Well, ‘Christian values’ judge non Christian’s, tell nine Christian’s that they’re going to hell, some judge unmarried couples, and deny gay people basic rights such as marriage, and forbid women from taking leadership roles in their churches - so I would say NONE!

My values centre around a sense of community and fairness, around treating others as you would want to be treated, being kind to other people, volunteering and helping, not being deliberately harmful or disrespectful to other people.Working for what you have and recognising that others aren’t always as lucky.

So far this has done me well, I family, close friends, a community and generally am a happy person.

How have you explained life and death - it’s the same for everyone regardless of any religion.

Interesting thread.

Firstly, only a relatively small part of the modern day Christian Bible directly covers the teachings of Christ - i.e. the Gospels. Before is taken from the Jewish Torah (mixing the order of the books, and leaving a few out does not make it Christian). After is an awful lot of amendments written by men, who believed that the ultimate words of Christ still needed editing and refining. Some of them were possibly hallucinating (i.e. revelations).

Call me picky, but if we are going to believe that Christ was the son of god, then I am pretty sure he said exactly what he meant to say, in full, at the time. Of course the Gospels were all written by third parties, not Christ himself.

Of course, Christ said a lot of horrible things - like, women are not bad; children are not bad; foreigners are not bad; generally be nice to one another; working people deserve a decent income; being rich does NOT make you right. At least they are horrible things as far as many so-called Christians are concerned.

And if we are honest, many of the things he talked about, had already been discussed and implemented by people long before him - including pagans. Jesus was just really good at putting the ideas into stories a.ka. "being a half-decent person for dummies".

I think that many posters have answered the OP’s original question extremely well. However the OP seems determined to shoot down all their answers and his/her replies are becoming increasingly convoluted and referring to a particular author’s interpretation. Maybe the original question would have been more suited to the religion and philosophy board or should have been phrased differently to specify more accurately what they wanted to discuss.

I just meant I haven't brought heaven or hell into it when my child has asked questions

Something a Christian fundamentally cannot understand because you aren’t true to yourself. There is no intrinsic moral code.

Don’t send your DC’s to Sunday school. My friend sent her 6 and 7 year olds. They only went three times - scared them to death with talk about going to hell if you didn’t worship god and repent your sins. Ridiculous- heaven and hell don’t exist and neither do sins or god.

If she didn't believe in religion why did she send them in the first place?

I'm curious to know what backward church this was ?

Be nice. Don’t be a fucking dick. That’s it really.

She wanted to let them understand different religions so they could decide for themselves - it was a village Church of England.

I think 6 and 7 years is a bit young to be studying comparative religion.

Did she send them to the local mosque as well?

Did she raise a complaint with the organisers concerned?

Well it was 'good' for the time and for the more healthy in the group. It meant extra resources to keep the other humans healthy.

Humans are all trying to survive. Different groups, in different time periods, will develop group rules differently to enable the survival of the most powerful and ensure continuation of the species.

In the past humans have used ideas such as of the gods, formalised religion etc.. as a method of control and keeping the humans following rules which may have mostly benefitted the rich and more educated humans in the pack, because they were the ones inventing the stories to keep everyone in check.

TV and radio were the new bible in keeping the masses in check. N Korea and china do media well to ensure the survival of the leaders.

Social.media is perhaps our new bible.

The weakest in most societies sadly get sacrificed by the most powerful to ensure the powerful survive and since they are the ones most able to tell the stories and get the word out, it is what they say that people believe or at least, even if they don't.believe it, they have to follow it for their own.survibal (lest the powerful turn on them)

DT’s were at an international school - they visited different religious places - was good for them to understand that some people have different beliefs (we’re atheists). Something all children should do - understanding helps open mindfulness.