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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

1000 replies

BlossomBlanket · 03/05/2025 12:26

Just that really!

OP posts:
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nomas · 06/05/2025 07:29

To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

I’m a Muslim so I live by Islamic values.

But good values are not just the preserve of the religious, they’re human values that transcend religion.

BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 07:30

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 06/05/2025 06:57

The "right thing" is surely fixed, but the morality of what to do to get to the "right thing" is going to change from person to person, scenario to scenario, belief system to belief system.

For example, this morning the "right thing" is that I get my child to nursery. There's no real moral decisions to make there except maybe to I walk or drive? Usually I'd say morally I should walk, because it's better for her health and the environment. But as we recently got a new puppy, it's better than this time I drive so the puppy isn't left alone too long for the first time. It won't hugely impact DDs health or the environment if today I drive but it will hugely impact the puppy's ability to be left without stressing if I take longer by walking.

The "right outcome" is still achieved, my child ended up safely at nursery. But other people will have different ideas as to whether I was morally correct in how I did it.

And then you have things the other end of the scale, deciding whether to join conflicts in other areas of the globe. The "right thing" is that those end, but morally, what's the best way to do that? Do we join fights? Should fights have started in the first place? How should they have been prevented?

What is the "right thing" fixed by? And why is the means to that end not subject to the same moral laws?

OP posts:
BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 07:32

Riaanna · 06/05/2025 07:25

Where have I said any religion is better than another? I specifically said any person who relies on religion. I didn’t name a religion.

I was speaking about religion generally

OP posts:
MellowCritic · 06/05/2025 07:34

BlossomBlanket · 03/05/2025 12:36

Have you heard of the Bible?

No need to be rude! .. is that' a Christian value ? Might be one you need to learn.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 06/05/2025 07:57

BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 07:30

What is the "right thing" fixed by? And why is the means to that end not subject to the same moral laws?

It's fixed by the needs of society. What we need to be able to survive as a species and a functional society. And a planet in general.

Much like wolves don't just go around killing one another because then their species wouldn't survive. They only kill one another to defend themselves or their pack. Most animals are the same. Which is why "self defence" is a reasonable defence for a human.

PurpleChrayn · 06/05/2025 08:09

Judaism!

Naunet · 06/05/2025 08:20

As an atheist, I guess Christian morals I don't agree with are praying and worshipping a God, obviously; thinking homosexuality is a sin, and misogyny/treating women as second class and men as the head of households. I'm also pro abortion, don't think that aligns with Christian morals either.

EmeraldShamrock000 · 06/05/2025 08:46

Naunet · 06/05/2025 08:20

As an atheist, I guess Christian morals I don't agree with are praying and worshipping a God, obviously; thinking homosexuality is a sin, and misogyny/treating women as second class and men as the head of households. I'm also pro abortion, don't think that aligns with Christian morals either.

It depends on the Christian really. I am a Christian that respects that love is love. No family is perfect, we all have troubles.
Women are generally the head of the household these days, I know I am. 😅

MrsSkylerWhite · 06/05/2025 11:09

JustSawJohnny · 03/05/2025 15:36

Christianity, or any religion, don't get to claim values for themselves.

It is perfectly common for good people to live good lives with zero interaction from any organised religion.

That said, I've known a good few absolute shits who've been very religious. Abusive, drunk, aggressive, racist, arrogant bastards. Quite a few affairs. One paedophile. I could go on.

You don't need a holy book for a good life.

Looking at the damage religion is doing around the world right now, I’m very, very pleased that I’m not associated with any of them.

pikkumyy77 · 06/05/2025 12:44

One of the issues here which I don’t think has been addressed is the difference between a principle based values system and an authoritarian based value system. Or we might say between a morality if principle and one of followership.

Most if the non Christian posters here—especially the atheist or agnostic ones—tend towards a principled or reasoned morality where they reason backwards and forwards from the kind if person they want to be or society they want to see and try to figure our which hard and fast rules conduce to that.

A religious morality tends to be authoritarian—its good or right because god has commanded it. Even if generally it is abhorrent it can still be religiously correct or necessary if god orders it. So we have Abraham’s near sacrifice of Isaac. We have God’s torment of Job. We have Jesus refusing to acknowledge his mother. We have theology and apologetics designed to explain away the way the basic rules (the ten commandments) may be bent or broken by people in power or at God’s command.

Just look at any authoritarian cult—look at evangelicals following Trump? Their hard and fast morality which rendered Clinton anathema for adultery went right out the window when they decided to back Trump and they justified it with reference to the bible and to the overriding principle that God doesn’t follow his own rules and can’t be held to then.

The statement “this is right action” and the statement “this action is right because god wills it” are very different.

I really despise the servile, rewards based, heaven focused nature of Christian morality. I despise a focus on sexual, patriarchal, norms of morality that make masturbation, divirce, and premarital sex sins but not the mass sexual and physical abuse of children.

ParmaVioletTea · 06/05/2025 13:42

BlossomBlanket · 03/05/2025 12:44

Yes it does - its stance on usury for instance, shared with Islam but not by Judaism

Historically, Christians have always been happy to do business with Jews, while simultaneously condemning or judging their stance on usury.

So, you know, hypocrisy is NOT one of my non-Christian values, @BlossomBlanket . I'll leave that one to the Christians.

I also don't indulge in the sin of spiritual pride. I tend to find that that is also a very Christian value I prefer not to adopt as one of my non-Christian values.

My ethics come from valuing people for their marvellous humanity and the integrity of their human lives. Simply that.

esthersouwester · 06/05/2025 15:06

"Historically, Christians have always been happy to do business with Jews, while simultaneously condemning or judging their stance on usury."

It wasn't the usury that was the problem but the lack of a "level playing field". Our Lord wasn't too keen on it either, hence throwing the money-changers out of The Temple
For anyone unaware, the accepted rule in European Christianity for a long time was Christians were allowed to issue loans but not charge interest. This created the stereotype of Jewish lenders, as they were able to make an actual business off it.

SlowestHorse · 06/05/2025 15:20

BlossomBlanket · 03/05/2025 12:37

This is where is gets interesting, why do you consider them right?

Why do you need a book to tell you what to do? I find the implication of your reply here quite irritating - like no-one can want to do what is normally accepted as “the right thing” without a set of instructions/threat of ending up in “hell” if you don’t?

Parker231 · 06/05/2025 15:54

SlowestHorse · 06/05/2025 15:20

Why do you need a book to tell you what to do? I find the implication of your reply here quite irritating - like no-one can want to do what is normally accepted as “the right thing” without a set of instructions/threat of ending up in “hell” if you don’t?

I agree - I know the difference between right and wrong without needing to refer to a book of rules, many which aren’t realistic for the world we now live in. The Bible is full of stuff I don’t believe in. Hell doesn’t exist - it’s just a form of trying to control people to worship an imaginary god.

ParmaVioletTea · 06/05/2025 15:55

For anyone unaware, the accepted rule in European Christianity for a long time was Christians were allowed to issue loans but not charge interest. This created the stereotype of Jewish lenders, as they were able to make an actual business off it.

And Christians were happy to do business with them, while all the time amplifying Jew-hating stereotypes. It wasn't until nearly the middle of the 19th century that Jews, or anyone with a Jewish background, could stand for the English Parliament, or take a degree from Oxford or Cambridge.

Terrribletwos · 06/05/2025 16:13

Abend · 03/05/2025 14:58

It's not possible to keep all of these, that was the whole point of the New Testament and the Jesus story.

Edited

I don't understand this dichotomy. Did God change his mind?

Relaxaholic · 06/05/2025 17:03

I do not derive my morals from Christianity or any other religion. Most religions probably overlap quite a lot with my moral code, but I wouldn’t be arrogant enough to assert that their code comes from my way of thinking, which is what many Christians do in the reverse. It is smug and really annoying, and also inaccurate.

There are some major areas where my moral code does not overlap with Christianity:

  1. I am against genocide (Noah’s ark- yikes!)
  2. I am against parents sacrificing their children for the ‘greater good’ and human sacrifice generally (Abraham attempted it until God let him know it was just a test, and also Jesus)
  3. I am against hating people who are gay on the grounds of their sexuality
  4. I am all for women’s rights and do not submit to my husband, also think Eve was a massive scapegoat
  5. I am against slavery
  6. I am against making people suffer just to make a point (Job- awful story! See also Sodom and Gommorah- being turned into a salt pillar was pretty harsh)
  7. I do not put any ‘god’, including the biblical one, above everyone else
  8. I think it’s ok to covet- thinking about something is not the same as actually doing it
  9. I think entrepreneurialism and wealth creation is a good thing (the eye of the needle analogy is pretty unfair and judgmental towards wealthy people)
  10. I do not believe in predestination or the notion that a higher power is in control- we make our own way in life and some are more fortunate than others through no fault of their own

I am sure there are other areas that do not overlap

Relaxaholic · 06/05/2025 17:19

Just thought of another one- I do not believe in absolute forgiveness. If someone hurt my children intentionally and caused serious harm, I may decide not to ever forgive that person. That would be ok in my book.

Relaxaholic · 06/05/2025 17:20

And another one! I am against sending people to hell because they decide not to worship me. I think sending people to hell is a bad thing. Controlling what others believe with the threat of hell is also against my moral code. I am on a roll now…

BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 17:51

MellowCritic · 06/05/2025 07:34

No need to be rude! .. is that' a Christian value ? Might be one you need to learn.

...Was it really that rude?

OP posts:
BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 17:53

Parker231 · 06/05/2025 15:54

I agree - I know the difference between right and wrong without needing to refer to a book of rules, many which aren’t realistic for the world we now live in. The Bible is full of stuff I don’t believe in. Hell doesn’t exist - it’s just a form of trying to control people to worship an imaginary god.

Edited

How do you know the difference between right and wrong

OP posts:
BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 17:53

ParmaVioletTea · 06/05/2025 13:42

Historically, Christians have always been happy to do business with Jews, while simultaneously condemning or judging their stance on usury.

So, you know, hypocrisy is NOT one of my non-Christian values, @BlossomBlanket . I'll leave that one to the Christians.

I also don't indulge in the sin of spiritual pride. I tend to find that that is also a very Christian value I prefer not to adopt as one of my non-Christian values.

My ethics come from valuing people for their marvellous humanity and the integrity of their human lives. Simply that.

What is wrong with hypocrisy?

OP posts:
BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 17:56

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 06/05/2025 07:57

It's fixed by the needs of society. What we need to be able to survive as a species and a functional society. And a planet in general.

Much like wolves don't just go around killing one another because then their species wouldn't survive. They only kill one another to defend themselves or their pack. Most animals are the same. Which is why "self defence" is a reasonable defence for a human.

The needs of society? How is that determined

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Crazyworldmum · 06/05/2025 18:06

Im more interested in those Christian’s are supposed to follow and don’t . Now that is a massive list

pointythings · 06/05/2025 18:12

BlossomBlanket · 06/05/2025 17:53

What is wrong with hypocrisy?

Sorry, what now?

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