To be really worried about Reform?

[FiveHorse]

Just that really. They’re predicted to gain the most from the upcoming elections, if this carries on could we see a reform government at the next general elections? Or is it press scaremongering as usual?

I guess the obvious reason would be that they wouldn't qualify for the visa

…exactly. There are no visas for asylum claimants, you have to be in the country to apply, so of course they wouldn’t qualify for a holiday, work or study visa 🤷

Just for those who are thinking of giving up their human rights protection to stop the boats

https://theconversation.com/leaving-the-european-convention-on-human-rights-wont-stop-the-boats-but-it-will-create-other-problems-for-the-uk-227403

No, that is not what I said. You're reaching. I agree with Clav.

The justice secretary has been defending the Home Office decision to review article 8 (right to family life) of the ECHR today. (The Guardian) She said "it would be wrong for the government to adopt a "nothing to see here" approach and to pretend there were not some problems. Not all cases that have led to article eight being criticised are "completely spurious".
"Some do not always stand up to scrutiny when you get into the full facts, and they do raise questions of whether the law is working as it should".

I agree with Shabana Mahmood, and the Home Office review.

I’ve already said what I think. I’m not committing to anything now. And have the experience of a country not in the ECHR and the democratic freedoms plus protections they have, and citizens are happy with.

You seem really focussed on labels rather than the essence of the issue, one of the many reasons I dislike the current wave of middle-class liberalism, it's all about identity and labels, not about the substance.

I am quickly writing posts on MN to share my views, not defending a thesis in front of my superiors. As a migrant, I am actually chuffed to bits to master British cultural references from 1997 (if that's what it is), thanks for the compliment.

Liberals don't want better for everyone, they want better for everyone "except the fascists", important nuance. And the definition of "fascism" is expanding very wide these days. The fewer solutions they have (when you don't want to face the real problems, no wonder you got no solutions), the more everyone is a fascist, how strange. You think immigration is a problem -> You are a Reform -> You are a fascist. And it goes the same for gender, for Palestine, for benefits, etc. Look at how quickly I got a xenophobic remark, look at the statistics showing the left is actually more totalitarian than the rest of society ...

You are right that liberal democracy brought us prosperity, it did. But it stopped in the late 90s when left and right combined went all in for globalisation and free trade. It decimated European industries and by extension the working classes the Left was supposed to protect.

I actually agree that there should be a way for people to make asylum claims outside the UK. My biggest objection to the current system is that it's effectively a survival of the fittest scramble to get to the UK. Which obviously favours the strong, the relatively wealthy and men. Generally not the most vulnerable.

What I don't agree is that having such a system would reduce the number of people coming by other routes.

UK industry was decimated in the 1980s by Thatcher.

Well if Farage does end up as PM I am glad I am old. It will be the young who will pay the price for the folliesof the older generations. Just like Brexit.

I am not going to elaborate, because honestly, it is very wearisome to explain things to people who don't want to admit these things exist.

If you want to understand the concerns of more than half the UK population about immigration, you have plenty of opportunities to learn more about it, just listen and observe, you don't need me on MN. As your side says from their high horse of moral superiority, go educate yourself.

But that's not your goal. Your goal is disingenuous, you don't want to hear my views at all, you want to "catch" me on a detail, so you can make a lot of noise about it, to distract from the fact you are totally incapable to answer something sensible to the core of what I have said.

Can reform be any worse than Tories or Labour?

Without a shadow of a doubt they can.

So the ECHR is not perfect, I never said is was, every legal system has its loopholes.

Still no reason to take the UK out of it like Reform is promoting.

Yes

The definition of fascism hasn't altered, the actions of certain parties are sadly living up to that definition. I can see you are all about the defence and are angry about something that probably doesn't even impact you, your default setting appears to be feverish anger over immigration and that's all you have, perhaps try and transcend your default setting as it sounds like it has enslaved you, real freedom is about the ability to think for yourself. With immigration, you are worshiping the hate, the intolerance, whereas you could view it differently and not allow your arrogance to win!

100000000% yes

Any of this sound familiar? (You can replace Jews with Muslims or Asylum Seekers if it helps).

Nazi Policies

The Nazi party’s policies were deliberately vague so they might appeal to as many people as possible.

People of both right and moderate-left wing politics joined because they agreed with at least one of their policies

promises of better pensions and increased employment appealed to the common man and many traditional socialists

opposition to communism led many landowners and businessmen to support the Nazis – they were seen as the only credible right-wing alternative to the left-wing parties

belief in the supremacy of the German race appealed to nationalists

Hitler's hatred of Jews struck a chord with many people - they were a convenient scapegoat for all Germany's problems

I am talking GATT, NAFTA, WTO, etc.
All these free trade agreements date back from the 90s.
Thatcher started in the 80s, but it only got global after she was gone. And most mainstream socialist parties in Europe had fallen for it by then, Labour included.

Btw, not saying a wave of globalisation was only bad, it did lift a lot of people from poorer countries out of abject poverty, made millions all over the world access middle class standards, etc. It has evened out the field between the Western countries and the rest of the world, bringing more fairness.

But the ones who got sacrificed for it were the blue collar, working classes. not the elites (left or right) who decided it and got to enjoy its (now dwindling) benefits.

When people of Jewish faith are openly called fascists by the Left because they don't support Palestine, you can reasonably argue the definition of fascism has moved quite a bit.

I am utterly sad that the Left has betrayed its working class and country, has become incapable of respect for differing views, has lost critical thinking to replace it with emotional outrage, has become sanctimonious and patronising, and is actually so insufferable that people feel more and more comfortable voting Reform.

Reform didn't appear because Nigel Farage is a titan of politics. Reform (or any avatar Nigel or similar will pull out of their sleeve) will keep appearing as long as the 2 main problems of British society are not addressed: how to get some industry back in the UK? how to manage migration and integration?

i’d suggest @Blossomtoes she went way beyond simple decimation (10%)

You’re right. I used the term loosely.

I was getting a bit over-excited @Blossomtoes at the Graun catching up with me 😄

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/apr/30/tactical-voting-to-stop-reform-may-hamper-farage-in-local-elections

Who’s openly calling Jews fascist?

ive not seen any mention of Jews on this thread until you just brought them up

I did wonder if that would happen. It’s excellent news that it appears to be panning out that way.

Reality from Down Under

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/may/01/imagine-dutton-implausible-cuts-to-migration-were-actually-possible-now-see-the-dire-economic-consequences

I had hoped that would happen! A lot of moderate conservatives absolutely detest Farage and are still unhappy about Brexit.