AIBU to think women escaped domesticity by hiring other women to do it?

[AlloaintheMiddle]

This has been on my mind for a while, give me your thoughts.

There’s so much talk about modern womanhood, career success, independence, “having it all”… but often, that freedom seems to rely heavily on other women stepping in to do the work they’re now too busy (or unwilling) to do: childcare, cleaning, cooking, eldercare….

It’s rarely men picking up the slack. It’s almost always other women, often migrant, often poorly paid, and working long hours to support their own families while making it possible for more privileged women to “lean in.”

AIBU to feel like this isn’t really liberation so much as delegation, and that it doesn’t dismantle gendered domestic roles, it just shifts the burden to women lower down the socioeconomic ladder? And men still get away with it?

What do you think?

I think people just want women “back in their place”.

Which is why such a big deal is made of traditionally female role’s being outsourced but nothing else.

How does she get paid? @CautiousLurker01 ?

Why? Her clients pay her direct by bank transfer per her invoices which are generated on one of those apps. She is self employed so will complete a self assessment form with the annual data her app produces. I understand from conversation that she pays voluntary NI contributions, in case that is what you are trying to get at?

Why?

you have just answered the question

you don’t think relevant if you’d responded “cash in hand”?

So, you were hoping imply that - if I replied ‘cash in hand’ [and am assuming that is what you are implying about other PPs here] that it was an illegal, tax avoiding scheme where recipient is exploited and/or working illegally?

Whereas most of these people are legally, gainfully employed and declaring their income through all the proper channels?

Hope you can see how despicable the undercurrent to that line of questioning is.

You’re completely right, and it’s the elephant in the room that there are huge safeguarding risks in sending men in to do care work, to which those who are argue for it in the name of equality appear to be blind.

I don’t know what the answer is. We must urgently as a society recognise that traditional caring roles have value and ensure those who spend their time doing them are appropriately paid.

“Hoping”?

quite the opposite

most cleaners aren’t earning £35k a year for a 30 hour week

Why would it matter of it was cash? The cleaner is self-employed so ensuring they are paying the appropriate taxes is on them, not the customer.

You’re an expert on this are you? Work for the HMRC or a government policy think tank with data on this particular sector of the economy?

The cleaners round my way can and do earn a good income. Mine drives a lovely car, and [gasp] has a joint mortgage with her fiancé too. Shocking, I know. She even has money for lip filler and highlights.

I’m not really sure OP, because outsourcing domestic tasks does at least provide employment, although I agree it’s morally wrong to employ someone on shitty terms or pay a company to do so.

I think having a cleaner, or whatever you need, and paying them decent money, is absolutely fine all round.

Mind you, over on another thread atm there’s an awful lot of I-clean-my-own-house-what’s-your-excuse competitive backbiting going on between working women, so who can say…🤷‍♀️

An expert?

not remotely

It is an interesting point.

We aren't super well off but I do have a cleaner once a fortnight, she has her own business to work around her daughter and employs another woman who has young kids, and it works round their school hours. I don't think they are being exploited or anything like that. Just fellow mums doing me a great service and helping their own families as well as mine. Maybe I am being naive.

When you say gets “holiday pay” is this meaning you pay her when you go away on holiday?

or you pay her for when she goes away on holiday?

Well we stopped child labour in cotton mills by exporting the work to India, who used child labour. We reduced our carbon footprint by exporting our dirty manufacturing to China, so it just follows.

No you're not.

In every thread where a women chooses to stay at home she is told that getting work is a priority because heaven forbid she be beholden to a man for her bread and butter. But now we're being told it's only certain types of work that it's ok for women to do and for other women to pay them for. Nails, hair and fillers -good. Cleaning or caring - bad.

Surely lots of people do work that they perhaps don’t fancy doing but have to / choose to for whatever reason? Whether that’s a man or a woman? Whether that’s window cleaning or cleaning?

I have never had a cleaner.

Ok

Anyone I know that has the kind of help pay very well - nannies can earn well, cleaners get at least £15-20/hour near me, private cooks certainly demand decent salaries. And these are good, ‘honest’ jobs. I do know a couple cleaners who are Polish, but they do it as it provides flexibility. But otherwise all the ones I know (Nannies, childminders, even the two cooks/housekeepers) are English.
Of course if both parents work they will have to pay for childminding. A few I know pay for cleaner once a week. I only know two people who have a cook and/or housekeeper. They are trained and do well. One couple (he died maintenance she dies cooking/cleaning) have their own cottage provided. One nanny gets to travel with the family and enjoys that immensely.
So while I get your point many of these jobs are done by women, I’d argue that many of these women want to do those jobs. And I think there’s a snobbery it considering these jobs as unworthy or burdensome.

For what reason?
financial?
no need?
didn’t want?
some kind of moral aversion?

My parent's cleaner used her cleaning wages to pay for her horses! They paid her well over minimum wage. As long as you pay your cleaner well treat them well, I don't see what the problem is?

But actually you avail of the services of cleaners all the time. All the lovely, middle-class women twisting themselves in knots about the morality of hiring a cleaner are availing of their services every single day. You all go and do your jobs in offices, schools, hospitals, supermarkets, retail and factories, that are cleaned by other people. But that kind of cleaning is ok because you don't have to look at it when they come in at 6am. Its only when women ask for help at home it's an issue.

I think any job you are paid for is by definition an escape from domesticity, a word which broadly means working without remuneration to run your own household. You've taken one job that happens to involve being paid to, say, clean, and decided it is exploitative to women. Maybe out of the available minimum wage jobs, women prefer the ones they're likely already quite good at, and men prefer the ones where they are employed for their physical strength. As long as all jobs are open to all who can fulfil the requirements, I'm not sure it makes sense to say women are being subjugated because they take domestic roles more often. In the other scenario of women not being in the workforce, there are fewer jobs, no financial independence for either woman who is now employed, and lower overall standards of living (from a GDP POV).

Hang on a minute @Auldy

at least ask “why” before pouncing