AIBU to think women escaped domesticity by hiring other women to do it?

[AlloaintheMiddle]

This has been on my mind for a while, give me your thoughts.

There’s so much talk about modern womanhood, career success, independence, “having it all”… but often, that freedom seems to rely heavily on other women stepping in to do the work they’re now too busy (or unwilling) to do: childcare, cleaning, cooking, eldercare….

It’s rarely men picking up the slack. It’s almost always other women, often migrant, often poorly paid, and working long hours to support their own families while making it possible for more privileged women to “lean in.”

AIBU to feel like this isn’t really liberation so much as delegation, and that it doesn’t dismantle gendered domestic roles, it just shifts the burden to women lower down the socioeconomic ladder? And men still get away with it?

What do you think?

That is only a problem if you’re underpaying or otherwise treating them poorly. I’ve never had a cook or a cleaner - my husband and I have always both worked full time and both shared all the other responsibilities of raising children and running a household. We outsource for mechanics, roofers, plumbers, etc as neither of us have those skills. We outsource for childcare (from both men and women) so we can work.

my mother and mother in law - and grandmothers and every other generation on up definitely didn’t have any expectation of a 50/50 split at home so they had have work fit around all their home responsibilities. I’m luckier. My children are being raised to assume a shared load so hopefully the next generation will be even better.

Well, she's robbing you blind (robbers mask, not covid mask).

Oh no need to get angry.

I was saying surely studying is easier than cleaning? As in less physically hard and more financially rewarding at some point?

People are paid a fair wage now for domestic work (at least in the UK, which is where I'm talking about). As I said, to outsource everything a SAHM does for preschool children would cost around £200k a year.

I'm not talking about the past - where men and women had horrendous working conditions, there was slave & forced labour and servitude etc - surely you realise that's not comparable?

Most people still see SAHMs as being freeloaders, despite the fact that if you outsourced what they do, in most cases they're doing more £££ for the household than their DPs. I think it's good that domestic work is being outsourced to people who earn a fair wage rather than just been shouldered invisibly by women who basically end up doing a second shift of housework. Domestic work has huge economic value and we need to realise that

We are ALLLLLLL servants.

What’s wrong with subcontracting work to a third party, if you are both too busy or not able to do it?

You’re totally right, I have done it myself and not judging anyone. There are tons of young women from other countries working cash in hand where I live because they have student visas and can’t earn money in the “real system” so they do childminding, babysitting and cleaning and I’ve hired them myself. I tell myself that I’m always very fair with them but I can see myself they are very vulnerable to exploitation and I do feel uncomfortable about it. My husband does loads around the house but we actually can’t both work without tapping into this black economy to keep the show on the road.

Absolute nonsense misogynistic post. The workers carrying out menial work women traditionally did for free are paid. Why is being a cleaner any worse than being a bricklayer or binman?

The team of cleaners Dh arranged to clean our house because I now work and don’t want to are largely male.

I had a cleaner before who did 3 hours for £20 an hour. This one is just much faster but does same level of cleaning 🤷🏻‍♀️ all quotes were for 3 hours adding £60.

My friend definitely earns less than the UK average AND has a cleaner.

You’re inferring anger where there was mere incredulity at the blatant snobbery and internalised misogyny.

Quite.

There seems to be some particular ‘thing’ about ‘women’s work’ being outsourced, when in all other examples it’s absolutely fine and unremarkable.

My clients pay me for my time and skills. Why is what I do any different to a cleaner? Except that I am using my brains and they are using their hands. Still paying for a service. Nothing wrong with that way it’s been for hundreds of years.

Can you elaborate on the work a SAHM with preschool children being equivalent to £200k a year…?

I refuse to apologise for outsourcing work to people willing to be paid to do it, even if they are women, sorry. My cleaner is a woman, DH's carer is a man, the gardener last time I had one was a man, I don't know who does my ironing, I just hand it over. I didn't outsource these jobs, DH and I as a couple did, as I never saw cleaning as my sole responsibility.

You see, I don’t think minimum wage or just above is a fair wage.

And no, I’m not comparing domestic service to slavery or forced labour, do you not realise that the past had cleaners, child carers, gardeners, cooks and so on for centuries that were paid a similar wage, actually in some centuries a better wage as two servants could buy a cottage outright and retire on savings at age 55 or so? What cleaner and gardener on £17/hr each is going to be able to buy a cottage outright and retire at that age today? None.

I think it's good that domestic work is being outsourced to people who earn a fair wage rather than just been shouldered invisibly by women who basically end up doing a second shift of housework. Domestic work has huge economic value and we need to realise that

But it’s always been outsourced to people who earn a LOW wage. Domestic work has always had a huge economic value, at one point the #1 sector for employment in Britain was to go into service- which was to do these very same jobs that you are implying is something new.

Maybe she does but she's one person maybe she has cheap rent or paid off her mortgage? All I know is the vast majority of people can't afford to hire domestic helpers. But it's getting talked about on here as if it's something almost everyone is doing, same as on the private school threads.
Mumsnet is not representative of the real world and most posters are quite wealthy and don't always realise it because all their friends/family are also wealthy.

And wealthy people have ALWAYS hired maids and cleaners since the Egyptian days this isn't anything new is my point

@LoremIpsumCici £17/h is about £35k a year. Which is the average wage.

Domestic work has typically attracted lower wages as it can be unskilled work. Decent cleaners etc are pretty well paid nowadays, as people will pay a premium for good, regular people they trust!

Just adding… most of the cleaners where I live get £19-25/hr. Massively above minimum wage and higher than newly qualified nurses or primary teachers (apparently that is £18.33/hr), who have £50-60k of student loan debt hanging over them.

It’s not the cleaners who are being exploited.

Sorry! I guess I was wrong

I'm not rich enough to know the cost of a these.

No disagreement here. NRTFT but getting the chores done is a valuable job. When DH hired a cleaner as a bachelor, everyone was fine. When I moved in, it was @why doesn't she do it? I earned five times what he did, and I travelled constantly to do so, so no, I was never ever going to stay home to clean the house. .

Always the way! Women getting out of their traditional, stereotypical duties is inherently more controversial than men dodging theirs. And no, I don't have a cleaner.

No- you can’t direct compare what they charge to a wage. This is because cleaners have to cover all costs of doing business and extra taxes from that money.

But why do you think it's outsourced to people earning a low wage? Nannies where I am earn £20-25 and hour, my cleaner earns £19 per hour - minimum wage is about £12 an hour... it's quite a bit above min wage. And housekeepers earn even more than cleaners

They’ll be better off self employed than being paid through PAYE. I’d also wager… rather a lot won’t be paying tax on all of their income.

Every cleaner I’ve ever had, I’ve had to provide everything for them to use, so their costs of doing business are going to be pretty minimal.