AIBU to think women escaped domesticity by hiring other women to do it?

[AlloaintheMiddle]

This has been on my mind for a while, give me your thoughts.

There’s so much talk about modern womanhood, career success, independence, “having it all”… but often, that freedom seems to rely heavily on other women stepping in to do the work they’re now too busy (or unwilling) to do: childcare, cleaning, cooking, eldercare….

It’s rarely men picking up the slack. It’s almost always other women, often migrant, often poorly paid, and working long hours to support their own families while making it possible for more privileged women to “lean in.”

AIBU to feel like this isn’t really liberation so much as delegation, and that it doesn’t dismantle gendered domestic roles, it just shifts the burden to women lower down the socioeconomic ladder? And men still get away with it?

What do you think?

Speak for yourself. I pay my housekeeper 17.50 ph

It's definitely shifting. Most of the new care workers are male, so many that we're having issues with female clients not wanting males to do personal care and we don't have enough females to meet the need.

Our cleaner is male, which I love, and I think it sets a good example for my children.

I’m a woman and a cleaner. I earn a good hourly wage, in a job that gives me exercise and the pleasant chatty company of clients whilst requiring only 2 hours of my time and practically no mental effort. It suits me down to the ground and enables me to support neurodivergent children, a disabled child and terminally ill mother in law. I don’t feel in the least taken advantage of.

Also nurserys that employ men often have fewer applicants. As a society we don't want men in care roles.

I don’t think the OP is interested in marginalised women being properly remunerated, just in trying to guilt-trip the women who hire them back into unremunerated domesticity.

OP, my cleaner in the country at one point was an ‘Honourable’. My London cleaners were a married couple who were in London from Argentina so the wife could study law. When they went back home they sold the business to another South American couple who were also in London to study. For some reason, it was the DHs who cleaned our flat 95% of the time. Does that help you untie the curious knots in which you seem to find yourself about ‘modern womanhood’?

Though it’s mysterious why you think that having a vagina means cleaning and childcare are naturally your responsibility, or why delegating them to other people is a female problem.

Fair point!

I’m pretty sure it’s mostly men in the kitchens of the restaurants I order from on Deliveroo because I can’t be arsed cooking (and it’s always men who drop off the delivery).

Low paid, often immigrant, workers make our lives easier. That’s not a surprise to anybody.

You have just described a primary issue with white feminism. As in feminism up til now has been all about pushing for equality for the privileged upper classes instead of working class women, in which immigrants and minority ethnic groups are over-represented.

In what way is gardening “one off”?

Uch don't you worry yourself....i still keep PLENTY of the daily drudgery for myself. No one (except the super rich) has a cleaner come every day. Everyone with a cleaner has to still do the "daily drudgery". I still wash my dishes every day, I still do the laundry, I still clean my toilet, I still tidy. I also work and shop and cook. My cleaner comes for two hours once a week to dust and hoover and wash my floors. So yes my cleaner cleans other people's houses EVERY DAY but my brother in law plumber unblocks people's shitty pipes EVERY DAY, my friend who is a gardner still works in the lovely Scottish weather all year round EVERY DAY, because they are the jobs they want to do.

I think you definitely have a point - especially that it's rarely men doing these roles. It's not a new thing generally, anyone with enough money would have outsourced these things for years. I see having a cleaner as trickle down economics as it is supposed to work, Ditto childcare. But these roles, whilst vital are seen as low value/low pay. Womens work. My dh retired last year. He is not bad - does shopping, cooking, washing etc with only a tiny bit of martyrdom about it. When i suggested we didn't need our cleaner any more though he went mad. I come from a working class family and honestly find it a bit embarrassing that he is sat on his arse whilst someone mops round him. (and I am working all hours and travelling etc)

Cleaning and childcare have always been seen as women's work but cleaning is increasingly becoming a valued service. I pay my cleaner £25 per hour. Save your ire for early years workers and care home workers who get paid a fucking pittance for caring for the most precious and vulnerable members of our society.

I agree OP!

It is a classic economics case study:

A woman looks after her own child. GDP stays the same and no taxes are paid.

A woman pays a nanny to look after her child, so she can go work for enough money to pay her. Now there are 2 jobs, GDP has gone up by 2x people's salaries, and 2x people are paying taxes!

But only one of them is a feminist paradise for some reason.

Exactly.

And no different from when men and women want a break from cooking, they hire a man to cook up a Chinese meal and another man to drop it off to their house.

I’m a childminder and do it because I love kids, it’s my own business, and it’s a lovely job to do.
And I earn WAY more than minimum wage!

I pay my cleaner £15/hour. Yes, it is outsourcing a job I don't want to do. It is also providing someone else with an income which allows them to support their own family. Current cleaner is a woman but I have had male ones in the past.

I have also had male nursery workers. A minority, for sure, but given the horror with which most of MN treat men in childcare as perverts, I am not surprised how rare male nursery workers are.

But @MissAmbrosia dont you think that mopper is pleased for the work? If you sacked all the cleaning ladies and gardeners and handymen in the UK you would have a fuck of a lot of people looking for flexible work, often part time, often self employed so they are their own bosses. Where would they find it?

I pay my cleaner £63 for her to clean - sometimes it takes her 2 hours 30 but mostly just 2 hours. Definitely more than minimum wage.

Gardener is a regular slot, as is cleaner.

washing pretty much gets done by washing machines. Dishwashers and vacuums and robot vacuums have massively cut down time spent on cleaning.

eldercare is often make and female carers. When my dad had cancer he had a male carer come in to wash him and get him up.

childcare is mostly outsourced and is largely to women but it is a career these days.

only some of it has been outsourced to other women. Quite a bit it is to either machines or men.

My housekeeper is married to my gardener. They are both part time, well paid, employed so get holiday sick pay and pensions, move into my house whenever I’m away so they look after the dogs and watch a lot of sky tv which they don’t have at home, for very nice additional pay, both are well over 60. They regularly tell us how much they love their jobs. We love having them. What on earth is wrong with that?

I’m also an ardent feminist…not all jobs are drudgery just because we do it and the parents don’t.

Then why does it still take me so fucking long 😭😭😭. Bring on the robots!!

Oh and I send out my sheets and duvet covers to a very expensive service because I think it is too much work for someone her age. Have done since she turned 60 and asked to reduce her hours.

Most people cannot afford to hire cleaners nannies etc.

Only a small number of people can afford this. And it's nothing new, rich people have always hired nannies, cleaners etc.

My cleaner is on more than minimum wage

Im not sure argument is made by sticking to only those tasks that are domesticity or 'drudgery', all throughout time, people have hired other people to work for them to do things for them, sometimes its practical such as cleaning, childcare, building, plumbing etc, sometimes its tutoring for their children, sometimes its personal care like barbers that you would visit everyday, in many countries that is completely usual, hairdressers, facials etc etc