AIBU to think women escaped domesticity by hiring other women to do it?

[AlloaintheMiddle]

This has been on my mind for a while, give me your thoughts.

There’s so much talk about modern womanhood, career success, independence, “having it all”… but often, that freedom seems to rely heavily on other women stepping in to do the work they’re now too busy (or unwilling) to do: childcare, cleaning, cooking, eldercare….

It’s rarely men picking up the slack. It’s almost always other women, often migrant, often poorly paid, and working long hours to support their own families while making it possible for more privileged women to “lean in.”

AIBU to feel like this isn’t really liberation so much as delegation, and that it doesn’t dismantle gendered domestic roles, it just shifts the burden to women lower down the socioeconomic ladder? And men still get away with it?

What do you think?

Ah is that true? We have carers, almost all male, all from Nigeria.

I think the fact that you see the housework as drudgery and done by poor exploited women is actually internalised misogyny.

My DH and I have always pitched in, though I do the lion’s share as a SAHM and FT PG student. He’s the earner. He is happy to clean and help out when doing a full house clean when the family is coming. However, we recently decided we were fed up with household chores - decorating, cleaning etc when we wanted quality family time, so we hired in. My cleaner is a bright, energetic and lovely young woman from a hotel and leisure background. I don’t see her as ‘lower’ than me, in fact I am fucking grateful to have my home looking amazing every Friday without having to do all the elbow grease (I still do some, and sadly the laundry/ironing is still all mine). I make sure my older teens empty their rubbish, pick up their crap and flush their loos before she arrives out of respect to the job she does for them. As a result of her coming each week, they make more of an effort to keep their rooms tidy and pick up after themselves - I wasn’t worthy of that honour, it seems.

She’s a valued employee who makes a huge difference to our lives and frees up my time for my degree. She’s not some exploited minority, an emblem of the exploitative nature of capitalism nor a traitor to feminism. She’s just a bloody lovely person whose contribution to our household is hugely valued.

I like this POV

I delegated out cleaning and childcare so that I can go to work. My cleaner is independent, not an agency worker so she gets what she charges which is well above minimum. I appreciate she does bring her own cleaning products and drives so that is a deductible expense but she is doing this work so that she can have more time with her children (she works in their school hours). I also tidy around, so I do cleaning to an extent, she just takes care of the deeper stuff. I don’t particularly see it as outsourcing or delegating something that is supposed to me my job, or DH’s job, but without her, I would have to cut down my job and and therefore the dynamic would push me more in to a SAHP.

I'm disabled and use a female cleaner and her son does my gardening. My cleaner just loves cleaning and likes to take frequent mini breaks so is more than happy with her £20 an hour that I pay her, as it grants her a decent life. Similarly, her son is very happy with his £20 an hour as he also has a good standard of life and is able to eat out at nice places with his girlfriend etc.

I think it's only exploitative if you're paying people the absolute bare minimum. I'm just so grateful that I can get someone willing and able to do these jobs for me, but it's only fair that I pay a good rate for good work.

Tbh most of the people I pay to do work for me are men (gutter cleaning, window cleaning etc)

Nannies, housekeepers cleaners etc definitely don't earn minimum wage

This is so depressing. We've 3 kids. All ND to various levels. So not had it easy with child rearing. Met my now husband a 16. Both 1st gen uni grads. We're now both mid 40s. We both earn well, him more, 3:2. He never shirked childcare, and when I returned to work after mat leave it was a shared expense as it is a share responsibility and we also used a male child minder for while. No cleaner, as we all chip in, it's never been my sole responsibility. All childminders paid significantly over min wage. He cooks cleans and does laundry. As do I. And seems to be the norma i. My area wiyh our peers. Stop making domestic economic activity a women's responsibility and expect more from men. Most are surprisingly capable. Why make this a women vs women issue? We should expect, demand and give equal respect and value to the domestic realm from men and women.

Mmmm I agree that it is mostly well off/rich people who can afford cleaners. But I also think more people can afford some domestic help more than they think they can. And I think some people prioritise their needs and wants differently.

My mate is a single parent to two children (widow so absolutely no respite), works in the charity sector on about £28k a year full time and has a cleaner once a week so that she can spend a couple of hours being completely present for her kids at the weekend instead of spending that time cleaning the bathroom and floors. She doesn't drink, buy fancy shoes or bags or TV subscriptions or vape or get takeaways or go out...it's just the best use of her money for her and her kids.

Become a cleaner then and then see if you think they're not busting a gut earning their money.

Also, to the OP, I actually think the fact domestic work is seen as a job with a real-time price is a great thing. For so many years women's domestic contribution to the economy has been invisible.

Someone costed up recently that a SAHM to preschool children - if you outsourced everything they did - would cost around £200k a year. Yet I just read a comment on this site about SAHMs being "freeloaders". It's just internalised misogyny. Paying for domestic labour/responsibilities and realising their economic worth is a great thing imo

If you think any of those jobs are degrading then I see you point. They are jobs people can do they should be paid fairly according to the role. Your view is arrogant.

I know they are. Which is why I think they are worth the money...which is why I pay it. I don't want to be a cleaner. I also don't want to be a bus driver or a nurse or a pilot or a teacher. I'm not sure of your point.

How benevolent of you.

I always LOL when feminists brag about how equal to men, free and independent they are, because they now get to contribute 50/50 financially in their relationship AND still have to do all the housewife and parenting stuff - more or less with no help from their male partner. To me, this isn't equality, freedom or independence, it's massive stupidity, lol. The sad part is women who fit this bill can't even see it themselves that they're being taken for absolute mugs.

Respectfully this is Mumsnet. The average user is far wealthier than the average person and doesn't always realise it because they are surrounded by other wealthy people. That's why there's so many threads where posters talk about private school as if it's something most people are doing when it's only 7% of the population.
Likewise most people can't afford nannies, cleaners, and whatever else this post is about.

But it's always been this way with wealthier people hiring domestic help it's nothing new.

(Hope I don't sound bitter towards more well off people they are free to spend their money on what they want)

And I kinda get it. I wouldn't want a man giving me a bath as an elderly woman or needing care for some reason.

See this attitude stinks. Women who pay for help in the domestic sphere are portrayed as Lady Muck doling out charity to the waifs and strays. It's a statement of fact that if cleaners don't have work they can't pay their bills. If teachers don't teach ditto. If doctors don't doctor ditto.

But surely she would rather be the one studying with a cleaner, don’t you think?

Disclaimer: I have a cleaner and my children went to part time nursery when I was a SAHM. All women. So I am not judging anyone at all!
I like to think that I pay my cleaner fairly (twice what I earn hourly plus yearly bonus) My mum was a cleaner (and an immigrant) it really broke her physically and she still did everything at home. I just have this guilt about it.

Is she wearing a mask whilst she cleans?

It's like the worst form of misogynistic nonsense. People do diffrent jobs male cleaners tend to work in industrial cleaning ect you have to very removed from wider society to not understand that employing a person is not a reflection on the person womanhood or manhood. And the reasons women have advanced are not because they have hired cleaners. It's disingenuous. The problem is women like yourself who feel the need to police the activities of woman and quiet blatantly divide the world into roles that have higher purposes and roles that don't. In reality the cleaner that supports hers family is no less the the office worker who supports hers. This may come as a shock to you, many work class people also engage in the services others provide childcare even themselves having a cleaner. Ignorant

@MsCactus
Also, to the OP, I actually think the fact domestic work is seen as a job with a real-time price is a great thing. For so many years women's domestic contribution to the economy has been invisible.

? When are you talking about because literally for the past 1,000+ yrs we have had domestic servants, many of whom were women, being paid a real time price to do domestic work.

Do you think the maidservants of 1066 earning a wage was a “great thing”?

The OP is right that not much has changed, the only thing that has changed is technology has created labour saving devices so domestic service requires millions fewer workers (servants) than it used to.

I pay a dog walker, she is quite happy about it and has a thriving business. Am I taking advantage of her?!

What about my hairdresser? Should I be cutting it myself? Or is it okay to pay for that? Where do you sit morally on that?

What I loathe most about this, is the continued assumption the housework and domestic chores are the woman’s responsibility - even if both parents work.

And - it is then she criticised for providing other people with paid work with her wages.

I’ve never seen men attacked for hiring a gardener or window cleaner, the moment it’s someone in scrubbing the floors it’s a dereliction of duty by the woman of the house, and exploitative labour.

How bloody snobby of you. Do you hear yourself? You have just said that her work is of lass value and prestige than being a student?!!

And no - she loves her job and the freedom it gives her in terms of flexible hours, being able to break up her day etc as she’d hate an 8hr day in an office or shop. She runs her own little cleaning business employing and working with family members. Why should she want what I have?

As they say here on MN - give your head a wobble, please!!

I agree with you.

What’s the first suggestion you see on threads where the OP is complaining that her DH doesn’t pull his weight around the house?

‘Get a cleaner.’

Now I’m not saying that isn’t pragmatic advice but I think it proves your point - lots of families just end up sub-contracting domestic work to migrant women rather than splitting it equally.

No… not sure I understand that comment.