Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

The rapture stuff isn’t actually worth engaging in on a serious level, it’s too silly and infantile.

Don’t forget a puff of smoke. I do hope they leave a bit at least on their neatly folded clothes.

The rapture and creationism stuff is ridiculous and yes it’s easy to dismiss and/or dismantle because it’s so out there.

it does link to some of the more difficult questions about a supposedly kind god who punishes, and allows bad things to happen, and how that can be the case. Or questions about sun and salvation and who makes these rules up.

there’s a spectrum with rapture bollocks at one end and sensible Christians at the other but all through it there is thread that doesn’t make sense, doesn’t stack up. The answer always seems to be “but faith”, and that’s not good enough for me

The concept of the Rapture is a minority Christian belief - primarily in the USA Evangelical churches, that only really kicked off as a belief in the 19th century.
It really isn't a mainstream Christian doctrine.

I'd like to know what do the posters here who believe in the Rapture think happens to Christians who don't believe in it? (Or indeed what happens to non-Christians)

1 Thess 4:13-18 clearly describes the rapture or catching up.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The belief and concept has been around since the early Church it's not something that's been invented in recent history.

Iranaeus (Greek bishop AD 130-202) wrote of the church being 'suddenly caught up'. The early church were very watchful for the Lord's return.

You don't need to believe in the Rapture for it to happen to you, if you are a believer in Jesus (i.e. he died for your sins which you have repented of). Non Christians would remain on the Earth for the Tribulation events.

People really shouldn't instantly dismiss this as nonsense (and certainly Christians shouldn't) as there's a LOT of research and analysis on how things may pan out and what various Bible verses mean in their historical context. It's very interesting.

It doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t stack up because its not real. It’s all just a hodge podge of fiction written by too many people over too big a time frame.

I’m referring to the bible as I know nothing about this rapture stuff specifically.

Other interpretations of that text are also available.
The Catholic Church, the Anglican Church and The Orthodox Churches would not interpret that text in the same way you have.
What makes you right?

Well this is a veeeery interesting thread.

I've been interested in religion / spirituality for a long time. Not sure exactly how I'd describe myself as my thoughts and feelings are pretty eclectic.

I'm interested in the Gnostics because the Demiurge seems like a reasonable concept.

In terms of Biblical stuff, and who what why "God" is, I know that there is reference to it being a force that we as humans cannot comprehend, and really can't even name. I'm also struck by the bit about "in my father's house there are many rooms" (sic) which seems like a reference to our minds I think, and the infinite potential to construct our own thoughts and beliefs about the nature of existence. Because, before science, that's what we did.

If you think about it, at some point, a human, or collection of humans came up with the idea of God and then passed it around until it became fixed. We can't know exactly when, why or how, but it's certainly served a purpose in terms of power and control over the years.

I do think prophecy is mostly self-fulfilling. The stuff about end times and Rapture is just too convenient for fear mongers, and unfortunately at the moment there are those with power and influence trying to engineer their preferred and frankly horrific outcomes - see the Al Jazeera documentaries "Praying for Armageddon" for an enlightening take on this.

I've experienced my share of the unexplained over the years, and I file it away with mild interest, because there's danger in becoming fixated or over-invested in anything.

I think "spiritual" battles are just as much psychological battles.

I also think alot of religion and dogma is a cop out for personal responsibility - "It's not me, it's God's will", as one section if society slaughters another - error, no, that's greed, power and blood lust.

Bottom line, my ethos is just along the lines of "don't be a dick" and if we can figure out why we are here, and how, all well and good. We might not like the answers, and maybe life without mystery would be pretty boring.

Where did I explicitly state I am right?!

I am fully aware other denominations do not see things in the same way. None of us will know who is right (and by that time I suspect we won't care) until the time comes in the way that God has decreed. I am fully - FULLY - prepared to be wrong about it. But right now, that's the way I'm inclined.

I see it as yet another scare tactic to get people to worship and obey.

As a non believer I’m 100% confident that nothing is going to happen to non believers about this non existent event. Happy to continue with my life as it is now. The world isn’t going to end.

It must have some basis in the bible though as it can't be just made up out of nowhere.

The Bible's ambiguous and contains a lot of allegory. If you pick and choose which bits you regard as factual and which bits as allegorical, and then pick your favourite interpretations of what those allegories actually mean, you can find Biblical justification for pretty much any position.

It must have been really convenient for religious leaders to have that. Interpret it how you want, tell people what to do and if they don’t then god will punish them.

great control tool. Almost looks like it was designed that way

I noticed that a poster I replied to didn’t bother replying to me as I assume it would be a bit awkward for them. I didn’t ask a question tbf but I thought I had more than a valid point so I’ll open it up to others.

To those that believe god created the world and that evolution isn’t real, in that one species can’t turn in to another, what do you think of David Attenborough and his widely acclaimed and respected documentaries? He shows evidence and describes how things evolve over time. Do you just dismiss it?

Or professor Brian Cox who is a physicist and makes documentaries about the universe and how it evolved and that it’s billions of years old etc….

I can only assume you think these documentaries are absolute nonsense?l and that you don’t believe the physics to be true, despite the evidence? I find that absolutely fascinating yet terrifying at the same time

I'm glad you're so confident the world isn't going to end - even if you completely remove religion there are still other reasons why it could do so! Humanity being the biggest threat, I'd argue.

I think most Christians, including me, believe that children would go to Heaven.

The people who don't go to Heaven are those "without excuse".

People old enough to understand, who have heard about Jesus, are "without excuse". The vast majority of people in the world have heard about Jesus. They have a choice. Subscribing to Islam, Hindu, atheism, communism, or any other belief or non belief system is a choice not to accept Jesus. Make a choice, accept the outcome. It may sound tough - it is tough - but it is their choice.

This explains it well:

https://www.gotquestions.org/do-babies-go-to-heaven.html

Unfortunately there have always been wars and conflicts but the world continues. Nothing has changed.

So a person raised Muslim by Muslim parents in a Muslim country is inexcusable because they've heard of Jesus before? What proof is there that their religion is wrong and that yours is right? I think it would take a lot more than just hearing about Jesus for someone to abandon their cultural and family religion.

Surely you're making the same choice to not accept Allah, if Islam turns out to be the one true religion? Do you think it's fair that you would go to hell in that scenario, even if you'd been a good person for your entire life?

Surely true love is supporting someone even when they have made a mistake or the wrong choice? Certainly it's how I live my life, and I am not in the slightest bit religous.

Does that mean that, in fact, human nature is overwhemingly to to be naturally forgiving and supportive and caring? And so what more to one's value system can religion bring? I am genuinely intrigued.

David Attenborough's documentaries are fascinating but he doesn't get everything right. I have been to many talks and read many books showing the scientific basis for creation and a young earth. It is highly unlikely I will change my beliefs based on a David Attenborough documentary!

This rapture stuff got me googling last night and I found there were people who sincerely thought that this was going to occur on a particular day so they stocked up on food (presumably for family left behind? Anyway, to cut a long story short, that was about seventeen years ago. As far as I can tell nowt happened.

There is actually something called rapture anxiety and rapture trauma. The fear that you are not ‘godding’ enough so will not go to heaven when this rapture business starts. It’s all very unhealthy. Thank god (pun intended) I’m a non believer (aka athiest).

I really don't like the sound of your god. Sounds very unpleasant. Could you explain why unwavering adoration, worship and faith in god is so very very important to him?

He is God, he made us, he deserves worship. He doesn't say faith has to be unwavering, many people struggle with doubts which is normal.

If you don't think that Religious Bodies sometimes just make things up, where do you think the theology of the Trinity came from?
Or for a more recent one how about the Assumption of the BVM? (Only ratified in the mid 20th Century.)

Why does he deserve worship for making us? We never asked to be made and it's not like humans have done much good, is it.