Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

The word trinity doesn't appear in the Bible, but the concept of the trinity is there.

He deserves worship for who he is and what he has done. Our whole existence is amazing, we have a lot to worship him for.

I posted yesterday on the other thread, trying to give perspective as an Anglican RS teacher in a Catholic school.

AFAIK (and I've always learned) the majority of both Anglicans and Catholics accept the theories of evolution and the Big Bang. As most say 'science in the how and God is the why'. Pope John Paul II famously said that there is no argument between science and religion.

That said, people are obviously entitled to their different opinions. We can still be respectful of different beliefs to our own, even if we don't agree.

Any other questions, as someone who has a BA in Theology, a PGCE in Secondary Religious Studies and only one module left to do for an MA in Theology, I'm happy to try and answer other questions!

What has he done? Created humans and given them free will so he can ultimately judge them and punish them for eternity? Sounds cruel and narcissistic to me.

Let’s start with a classic. Why does a supposedly caring god allow suffering? Innocent people? Children?

Judging by some of the posters and their views on this rapturing business he very much does expect to be worshipped and adored, we aren’t even allowed to have any other gods or idols (why not?). ‘Making’ us doesn’t mean he deserves eternal worship, I don’t expect my kids to worship me because I made them (whatever worship means).

I answered this question yesterday as well. I'm assuming you want a theological answer? Most people who are atheists/agnostics don't accept the answer or find it satisfactory, which I understand.

Most Christians believe that the evil in the world is the consequence of humans misusing their Free Will. When humans misused their Free Will, it brought everything evil into the world as a direct consequence, including seemingly mindless and needless suffering. That's one explanation.

Another is that, as humans, we simply cannot fully and truly understand God. We can try to, and learn about him, but he is far beyond us as he is God - a perfect divine being. The choices he makes, for example 'innocent people and children suffering' we might not be able to understand, but have to trust that he has our best interests at heart because he loves us.

I'll say again, this is all from a majority Christian perspective, and you will probably not find the answer satisfactory, which is fine. It's the theologically accepted answer, and has been for thousands of years.

No “he” doesn’t. He’s your god, not mine, so I will not be worshipping him. And if this god is real, he hasn’t done a very good job, given all the intense and unnecessary suffering on earth.

Easy for you to say - but it took 300 odd years of early Christian thought to come to a conclusion about how it might work. Unitarians would still disagree with you anyway.

How many thousands of years?

St Augustine came up with his theodicy around the year 400, and it is considered to be the first of it's kind (discussing the existence of evil). So nearly 2000 years.

Less than 2, then.

Our existence is a matter of biology, but I agree that life is amazing. That's because the earth, which is billions of years old, that we live on offers so much variety, and becuase of the many people in our lives and through history who do and have done so much to make society what it is today.

Evolution is amazing, science is wonderful and the planet is, still, beautiful. Life as we know it will come to an end at some point, as it has before over the billions of years of earth's existence, but it is unlilley to be in our life time. Bar a catacylsmic event such as a meteor strike or nuclear armageddon it will be a relatively gradual thing. Humans are incredibly adaptable - we have had to be. That's evolution :)

I get that religion helps make sense of things for people, but I struggle with concept that because not everyone needs that they need to be told to worship something anyway, of, and by the way, if you don't when judgement day comes you will go to hell.

The year 400 AD is not nearly 2,000 years ago. And it’s just a theory of his, not something that came directly from Jesus.

i sort of see how allowing free will means god will stand by while a child is being abused or murdered. The free will of the perpetrator.

I don’t understand why a loving god would do that

and when it comes to natural disasters gilling children, why then? No free will is involved there yet god still stands by

Exactly, the “worship me or else” threat.

Yes, it's a theory. One created by probably the most respected Christian scholar of all time - a lot of current Christian teaching and belief is based on St Augustine.

The Christian perspective is that abusing Free Will brought ALL evil into the world, including natural disasters. So they're a consequence of Free Will. You can also attribute many natural disasters in modern times to climate change, which is a result of Free Will and humans abusing the Earth.

I suppose when Christians think of a loving God, they think that God made us because he loved us and gave us complete Free Will with the hope that we would choose to love him back. He doesn't intervene because that would negate Free Will, and the 'rules' he set for himself when we were created.

Don't forget the 'and give me some money to help spread the word'. Is it really just a protection racket like the mafia...only legal... ;)

Doesn't quite explain Job though.
God punished him and his children because of a wager with Satan.
His children were all killed - but it was all OK at the end and Job got new children who were better than the first ones.
Never met anyone who could explain why Job's (nameless) kids being killed was anything other than God's cruelty.
Unless of course you understand it as a fictional story with a message. But that doesn't fit with a fundamentalist view.

Yes, I understand. But this clearly illustrates that religion is just made up and not some genuine divine creation.

I am neither Anglican nor Catholic, I am Baptist. My beliefs are typical of most baptist churches I've been to.
I agree, we can still respect those we don't agree with, and we are fortunate to live in a country where we have freedom of religion

The message from Job is that faith in God will be rewarded. I talk about how Job must have felt, and we have discussions about the family he lost. Most things in religion don't have a clear cut answer because of faith.

@Puzzled4 how does it prove it's made up? Because it's a theory? The Big Bang and Evolution are theories - are they made up?

God didn't kill Job's children, Satan did.