Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

You really need to take off the conspiracy hat.

Doctors absolutely do not trash alternative medicine. What they do is test it, using a proper research methodology including placebo controlled double blind clinical trials. And if something is found to be safe and effective, it will make it into clinical practice. I worked in health research for 12 years, I know the processes involved very well.

And alternative remedies absolutely do make it into clinical practice. Modified ketamine infusions are now available for treatment resistant depression. Trials into modified forms of psylocibin are ongoing and looking promising. Tamoxifen for breast cancer was initially derived from yew before the compound was synthesised.

The difference is that none of these treatments were taken on a leap of faith - they were tested properly and thoroughly, with the safety of patients always first in mind.

Snap!

God is not manipulated into trials devised by people. People's faith for a particular thing is nowhere near constant or predicable. Scientific trials are out of the question. So it comes down to anecdotal evidence, which medical people reject even if similar things happen many times.

There was nothing in my post to indicate I thought Ian was lying. He was relaying what he was told by the other guy (James?). In fact saying James gets angry when challenged seemed like a very telling (and honest?) thing to say because that does not reflect well on James.

I haven’t got any further than the lady with the height growth yet.

Do you believe a 4’8” woman grew to 5’7” while being hugged by James (sorry forgotten his last name)?

Wow so now god will not be manipulated into proving things to mere man.

but earlier you (I think, maybe another poster so apologies if so) said that god works through doctors to heal people. So the clinical trials are part of his will? And if so, he’s choosing to withhold some cures but not others?

or he doesn’t work through doctors, so everything they cure is man doing it, not god.

which is it?

Yep, because anecdote is all it is. Meaningless.

Your miracle workers refuse to hold themselves up to the same scrutiny that fallible human scientists submit to every day. I know who merits the trust here.

There is zero evidence of medical implants disappearing. Zero. There are many cases of misdiagnosis where scans have been misinterpreted. So it seems to me far more likely that that’s the explanation, and indeed there are any number of medical negligence cases that confirm misdiagnosis.

To date though, no healing evangelist has provided any evidence other than saying ‘they are healed’ , and no healing evangelist has submitted any evidence for peer review by doctors, which is the normal process for new theories.

I think it’s spectacularly cruel to give the sick false hope. Paraphrasing someone here, but when someone religious offers to pray for my family when they are ill, I thank them for their concern. It’s a nice gesture - it shows they care. But, don’t stop the medical treatment!!

The rules which they make exclude any kind of medicine or healing that doesn't fit in with their scheme of things. Drug trial requirements are devised in such a way that the enormous cost excludes most contenders outside Big Pharma.

He would want to review medical records and tests rather than someone playing on people who are desperate.

Where’s you evidence of this? What scheme of things?

Absolute nonsense, and you are clearly showing your ignorance of how medical research works. When I worked in research, less than 10% of our portfolio was funded by pharmaceutical companies. The rest was funded by grants from universities, the government, charities and NHS Trusts themselves.

It is also not the case that trial = drug trial. My trust ran a trial into whether mindfulness could reduce sickness absence in healthcare staff (it can, and we now offer our staff those interventions). If someone came up with a well designed trial proposal for the potential effects of prayer, there is no reason why that would not get funding.

Everything you are saying here is an excuse for not submitting your religious interventions to scrutiny in the way that the scientific community does. It's actually a really weak stance to take.

Yes of course there were good and nice people before Jesus arrived. But how do you decide what 'doing the right thing' is? Some societies have decided that burning old women who dabbled in herb law was the right thing to do. Other societies have decided all-out war on their neighbour is the right thing to do. Some societies think it is ok to sell the women of another society (an 'out' group) into sexual slavery. All these things have been 'the right thing to do' - because humanity is in a state of sin and these are the results of that sin. My late DH put it another way: humanity is psychotic, so how do you control that psychosis?
A Christian might say that 'psychosis' describes the state of humanity when separated from God and that the sacrifice made by Jesus (the Word made flesh) made a bridge so that God could give everyone a hand up. Without the bridge he/she cannot because humanity's psychosis is an insurmountable barrier in that it causes humanity to act in inhumane ways, anathema to God, who is holy and cannot embrace the unholy.
Of course, not everyone wants a hand up and God says that's fine. Other people mistake the offering and think they can go on as they were, burning, killing, raping the 'other lot' who don't agree with their particular religious brand and they will be able to use the bridge because they have the 'true faith' (whichever one it is). They are in error and remain in their state of sin/psychosis. Those who refuse the hand are given opportunity after opportunity to take the offer: to not be in danger of behaving in a psychotic manner if their environment changes but to have a bedrock of love to bulwark their sense of 'the right thing to do'.
Sorry, not a theologian.

Ian Andrews is a very honest trustworthy man. I would trust any good friend of his - he doesn't need, want or cultivate dishonest or showy people. James Maloney, his friend, is a highly intelligent and educated man with several earned doctorates.

Both men could have earned a lot more money in the secular world. Neither is a money grabber, a charlatan or a naive deluded person. What they say they saw, they saw. Church healing events cannot be designed around evidence-gathering facilities.

And yes, if JM or IA say they saw something, I believe them.

https://citadelministries.com/shop/mp3s/

Roll up, roll up.

For a mere 2.99 a pop you too can access God's healing powers as espoused by Ian Andrews.

Of particular note, the MLM style tag line on the first episode about "blockages" that might be in your way.

Surely if this miraculous healing comes from God, it goes against Christian principles to charge for it?

He's charging for teaching material, not a fee to heal somebody. Ministries cost money to run, and IA doesn't rake in a lot of money. See my recent posts about this.

Sorry, who burned the witches? Who started the Crusades?

And stop referring to non believers as 'psychotic'. All my NHS work has been in Mental Health Trusts, and saying this is profoundly ignorant and offensive. You should apologise for posting this and change your thinking - your husband was incredibly wrong to use this terminology.

Whichever is suggested is not good theology. Humanity must work out its own salvation. The bridge is there to cross, the hand is held out. As we struggle to find our way in a world which is no longer perfect we make headway and paths open before us - we can take them or not but God does not withhold 'cures'. Also, God exists in eternity, 'now' is no different to him/her than 'then' or 'in the future' because none of those things exists and they also exist all at the same time.
Not everyone loves C. S. Lewis, but he had a good point when he wrote 'to Aslan all times are soon' - meaning that God exists outside our limited idea of time, a construct we have made and which we measure, imagining it to be an arrow going from the past to the future. For God that idea does not exist.

You are gullible and they are charlatans.

I’ve held back but I can’t really not say it any more.

Charlatan was the first word that came to my mind.

It’s snake oil salesmen.

I base my observations on knowledge of one person, trusting his judgment in choice of friends, and I have listened to and read quite a lot that both of them say. I haven't found any reason to doubt their integrity.

You base your opinion on - not very much I think.

There’s an article saying these ‘miracles’ are just on James Maloney’s word. Do you not find that suspect?

It's impossible to put God's healings and individuals' faith for a specific thing at that moment in time on trial as if they were uniformly replicable events. I'm sure you can see that.

Do you believe this story mentioned to be true @KeepHopeful?

About the person growing a foot during a hug?

I've read and heard a lot from both these guys. Both have massive experience as healing evangelists, and both know plenty of others doing similar things.

Both of them have seen thousands of healings in their own respective meetings and careers. They describe some truly amazing miracles.

Talking of the short woman who grew nearly a foot taller when James Maloney held her - I have heard him describe that in one of his podcasts.

It's frustrating that less healing ministry is done in Britain than in America. Many remarkable healings are reported in other countries too. There seems to be more scepticism against healing here, so less is attempted and less experienced.

Yes see below.