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Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

707 replies

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 16:00

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

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13
KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 12:41

pointythings · 27/04/2025 12:21

Or to the placebo effect.

If you're sufficiently interested in the truth, you can look up people I have listed and see and hear what they describe.

Start with James Maloney and Ian Andrews. They describe numerous healings which cannot possibly be by placebo.

Surgical implants or cancerous masses disappearing. Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing.

Anyone credulous enough to put those things down to placebo effect really is capable of believing the impossible!

pointythings · 27/04/2025 12:42

@KeepHopeful your post is entirely predicated on someone accepting the concept of sin. I don't. I accept that I do my best and that I am fallible. That can't be changed by a deity, because there is none. All I can do is try to do less harm than good and leave the world a better place than I found it in whatever ways I have available to me. And when I do harm, it is up to me to acknowledge that and make reparations.

You keep quoting the Bible as the source of all the answers; again, that cuts no ice with atheists. To us, it's a book of fiction that has been used to do great harm in the world. We want no part of it, nor of any of its counterparts in Judaism, Islam or any other faith.

As forf the research on faith and happiness, I'm sure that holds water on a population level. That does not however mean that it is impossible for a particular atheist individual to be happier than the religious individual standing next to them. I do not see how having a faith would add anything to my life or my happiness.

pointythings · 27/04/2025 12:44

Surgical implants or cancerous masses disappearing. Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing.

I'm sorry, but that is just tent revival hokum for the gullible.

There are of course cases of spontaneous remission in disease. Medicine is not and does not claim to be an exact and perfect science.

I've read some case studies such as the ones you describe and they are full of holes.

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 12:44

Absolutely no evidence that any of those things happened. If there was, it would be shared widely and held up as proof. It hasn’t been because there is no evidence.

therefore those people who saw that were either lying or wrong.

you are the one who is not interested in the truth

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pointythings · 27/04/2025 12:45

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 12:44

Absolutely no evidence that any of those things happened. If there was, it would be shared widely and held up as proof. It hasn’t been because there is no evidence.

therefore those people who saw that were either lying or wrong.

you are the one who is not interested in the truth

Exactly. If these things really happened, why is there no body of proper, peer reviewed research on it? Why are there no papers in actual medical journals on it?

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 12:50

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/04/2025 12:18

Or theatre. Got to keep the money rolling in ;)

Look up James Maloney and Ian Andrews. I have met IA and know some of his friends. He absolutely does not fake things, rake in money, or live extravagantly. The car I once saw him driving was a little cheap hatchback about 12 years old.

There will always be suspicion of fakery, but check these ppl out and judge their credibility. They are not rich.

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 12:51

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 12:41

If you're sufficiently interested in the truth, you can look up people I have listed and see and hear what they describe.

Start with James Maloney and Ian Andrews. They describe numerous healings which cannot possibly be by placebo.

Surgical implants or cancerous masses disappearing. Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing.

Anyone credulous enough to put those things down to placebo effect really is capable of believing the impossible!

Cancerous masses can disappear either through medical treatment or the way in which the cancer has developed.

Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing. - impossible 🤣

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:04

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 12:51

Cancerous masses can disappear either through medical treatment or the way in which the cancer has developed.

Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing. - impossible 🤣

Masses do not suddenly disappear through natural recovery, radiation or chemo. Metal surgical implants do not disappear by any natural process.

In this sceptical world, I think somebody would expose a healing evangelist who was faking healings. Listen for yourself to the people I name and decide on their credibility.

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:08

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:04

Masses do not suddenly disappear through natural recovery, radiation or chemo. Metal surgical implants do not disappear by any natural process.

In this sceptical world, I think somebody would expose a healing evangelist who was faking healings. Listen for yourself to the people I name and decide on their credibility.

If these things happened, the medical community would be very interested. They aren’t because it’s not physically possible.

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:19

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:08

If these things happened, the medical community would be very interested. They aren’t because it’s not physically possible.

Agree it is not physically possible. God is supernatural.

If you know anything at all about the medical profession, you'll know that it protects itself strongly against anything else that claims to heal unless medical ppl invented it. Think alternative medicine. Think opposition to homeopathy and herbs.

BunnyLake · 27/04/2025 13:19

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 12:41

If you're sufficiently interested in the truth, you can look up people I have listed and see and hear what they describe.

Start with James Maloney and Ian Andrews. They describe numerous healings which cannot possibly be by placebo.

Surgical implants or cancerous masses disappearing. Eyes forming in empty sockets. Shortened limbs growing out. Missing parts appearing.

Anyone credulous enough to put those things down to placebo effect really is capable of believing the impossible!

I’ve just looked them up. I’ve read a few paragraphs so don’t know too much but what I’ve read so far is : James Maloney told Ian of a time he hugged a 4’8” lady who wanted to be 5’7” and she grew to that height within this hug!

Ian then said if you wanted to get James angry all you had to do was challenge one of these miracles (seems a strange thing to say about someone you’re supporting?). When questioned about her clothes not splitting James retorted, “don’t you think god is capable of making clothes grow”.

That’s it, I’m converted

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:23

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:19

Agree it is not physically possible. God is supernatural.

If you know anything at all about the medical profession, you'll know that it protects itself strongly against anything else that claims to heal unless medical ppl invented it. Think alternative medicine. Think opposition to homeopathy and herbs.

I don’t believe god exists so he has nothing to do with health care. Btw - DH is a doctor.

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:33

What proof of a healing might you accept? A church setting up video cameras, with independent witnesses to testify that it wasn't faked? With prior written consent from all those who may spontaneously go forward for prayer of course. Hospital consultants providing reports of metal surgical implants or cancerous masses that were present but don't now appear in X rays and they can't explain why?

People write books, or post podcasts, including such healings. You can find some if you're interested. If you want a peer reviewed medical journal paper saying a certain hospital keeps getting patients coming back with missing implants or tumours, or new hip joints or lungs, then - sorry - no professionals are going to trash their careers by doing that in a cynical, sceptical world.

Doctors protect their profession against any other means of healing. There is no way they will publicise God's supernatural healing. Look how they trash most alternative medicine.

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 13:38

BunnyLake · 27/04/2025 13:19

I’ve just looked them up. I’ve read a few paragraphs so don’t know too much but what I’ve read so far is : James Maloney told Ian of a time he hugged a 4’8” lady who wanted to be 5’7” and she grew to that height within this hug!

Ian then said if you wanted to get James angry all you had to do was challenge one of these miracles (seems a strange thing to say about someone you’re supporting?). When questioned about her clothes not splitting James retorted, “don’t you think god is capable of making clothes grow”.

That’s it, I’m converted

Yep I read a bit
its batshit.

not one iota of any evidence for any of the things claimed.

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ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 13:40

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:33

What proof of a healing might you accept? A church setting up video cameras, with independent witnesses to testify that it wasn't faked? With prior written consent from all those who may spontaneously go forward for prayer of course. Hospital consultants providing reports of metal surgical implants or cancerous masses that were present but don't now appear in X rays and they can't explain why?

People write books, or post podcasts, including such healings. You can find some if you're interested. If you want a peer reviewed medical journal paper saying a certain hospital keeps getting patients coming back with missing implants or tumours, or new hip joints or lungs, then - sorry - no professionals are going to trash their careers by doing that in a cynical, sceptical world.

Doctors protect their profession against any other means of healing. There is no way they will publicise God's supernatural healing. Look how they trash most alternative medicine.

Evidence I might accept would be pictures or videos, verified. Or even multiple testimonies from verified qualified and credible independent people.

not a book or a podcast no

the lack of medical peer reviewed evidence is not a conspiracy by doctors.

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SinnerBoy · 27/04/2025 13:43

KeepHopeful · Today 11:35

I don't know how seriously to take this

My username is from a song and probably the best Rory Gallagher tribute act. Actually, that may be The Mississipi Sheikhs...

Anyhow, I will have to assume that when Jesus saves you, he makes you all po faced, so another reason to reject superstition. They change drastically over time, evolving far away from their original message.

I mean, what happened to God's wife, for example?

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:48

BunnyLake · 27/04/2025 13:19

I’ve just looked them up. I’ve read a few paragraphs so don’t know too much but what I’ve read so far is : James Maloney told Ian of a time he hugged a 4’8” lady who wanted to be 5’7” and she grew to that height within this hug!

Ian then said if you wanted to get James angry all you had to do was challenge one of these miracles (seems a strange thing to say about someone you’re supporting?). When questioned about her clothes not splitting James retorted, “don’t you think god is capable of making clothes grow”.

That’s it, I’m converted

If you spent a bit more time listening to these ppl you might be more inclined to believe them.

I know plenty about Ian Andrews. He's a very honest straightforward guy. He used to be a chartered accountant before going into healing ministry. He doesn't encourage people in stupidity or deception.

I know numerous people with involvement in or knowledge of healing ministry. They are all sensible people. I'm pretty sceptical about a lot of things in life, and I'm wary of religion-related things that don't sound right. God does heal.

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:51

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:33

What proof of a healing might you accept? A church setting up video cameras, with independent witnesses to testify that it wasn't faked? With prior written consent from all those who may spontaneously go forward for prayer of course. Hospital consultants providing reports of metal surgical implants or cancerous masses that were present but don't now appear in X rays and they can't explain why?

People write books, or post podcasts, including such healings. You can find some if you're interested. If you want a peer reviewed medical journal paper saying a certain hospital keeps getting patients coming back with missing implants or tumours, or new hip joints or lungs, then - sorry - no professionals are going to trash their careers by doing that in a cynical, sceptical world.

Doctors protect their profession against any other means of healing. There is no way they will publicise God's supernatural healing. Look how they trash most alternative medicine.

You’re sounding ridiculous now - fanciful.

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:51

SinnerBoy · 27/04/2025 13:43

KeepHopeful · Today 11:35

I don't know how seriously to take this

My username is from a song and probably the best Rory Gallagher tribute act. Actually, that may be The Mississipi Sheikhs...

Anyhow, I will have to assume that when Jesus saves you, he makes you all po faced, so another reason to reject superstition. They change drastically over time, evolving far away from their original message.

I mean, what happened to God's wife, for example?

I don't know many po faced Christians! The churches I know are happy places.

God didn't have a wife.

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:51

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:48

If you spent a bit more time listening to these ppl you might be more inclined to believe them.

I know plenty about Ian Andrews. He's a very honest straightforward guy. He used to be a chartered accountant before going into healing ministry. He doesn't encourage people in stupidity or deception.

I know numerous people with involvement in or knowledge of healing ministry. They are all sensible people. I'm pretty sceptical about a lot of things in life, and I'm wary of religion-related things that don't sound right. God does heal.

I wonder how much he charges???

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:53

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:51

You’re sounding ridiculous now - fanciful.

Really? What would your doctor DH do if he knew of such healings?

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:54

Parker231 · 27/04/2025 13:51

I wonder how much he charges???

Who? God or IA?

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 13:56

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:53

Really? What would your doctor DH do if he knew of such healings?

Im going to guess like any other educated and sensible doctor he’d be asking for evidence of medical claims, and if that was forthcoming he’d be open to reviewing it, seeing it it was repeatable in a controlled environment, and provable.

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KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:58

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 13:40

Evidence I might accept would be pictures or videos, verified. Or even multiple testimonies from verified qualified and credible independent people.

not a book or a podcast no

the lack of medical peer reviewed evidence is not a conspiracy by doctors.

Edited

Do you SERIOUSLY think doctors would do anything to encourage it, any more then they encourage alternative medicine that actually works?

ZoggyStirdust · 27/04/2025 14:01

KeepHopeful · 27/04/2025 13:58

Do you SERIOUSLY think doctors would do anything to encourage it, any more then they encourage alternative medicine that actually works?

i have some connections with medical research and clinical trials. Yes they would happily look at anything that can be proven to the correct standard.

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