AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Got a photo of a comparable placard or not?

Or is that on one hand women are saying 'no' and on the other, men are threatening to kill and hurt women?

Nice bit of misogyny with 'shrill'. Want to go for the hat trick with 'hysterical' and 'pearl clutching'?

I suppose in the case of actual transmen though, esp those who have spent years taking testosterone, they won't be offended at being told they don't look female enough to use the women's.

After all, that what they want!

I'm not being arsey, I just really don't think we need to worry about hurting the feelings of transmen who don't look womanly!

And I STILL feel perfectly safe in “women’s spaces” with transwomen there. That’s my main argument - I just don’t see the big deal. (Barrage incoming - I know…)

Do I owe you one? No!
Jog on and stop being silly

Yeah, thought not.

You seem very keen to have a barrage lobbed at you. If you feel safe you feel safe.

Shrill is not mysogynist - you’re grasping at nothing.
And not being particularly nuanced or intersting. Predictable though? Yup!

Nope. But am entitled to- as everyone else - to my opinion & standing up for what I believe etc. It’s just not a popular opinion, and that’s fine. Won’t change what I know, experience and believe to be true.

Just keep on chanting the mantras...

Gawd, you are determined to start a debate from me that I am not having or engaging in.
Doesn’t mean I can’t. Means I won’t & “no means no” to you here. Bye!!

It’s just not a popular opinion

loads of posters have said similars over the last few days, it might not be popular but it certainly isn’t unusual on mumsnet at least

Sorry but fuck OFF! What “mantras”?!? Sooooo predictably unproductive and idiotic

Actually - I take that back. Scratch the “sorry”

I take your point but yet again it is women being discriminated against, albeit ones who don't consider themselves women. This part is really out of kilter with the rest of the ruling.
Passing trans men being told they can't use either sex's spaces is not reasonable.

It's great that you feel safe with them. (Although you might change your mind if you met someone like Katie Dolatowski.)

Many of us don't, and you don't have the right to consent on our behalf.

I am NOT consenting on your behalf!! I am saying what I believe. Not what you should do or believe.

OK, so what you believe only really applies in your house then, doesn't it?

Not in public life.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a trans person in my own house either. Mainly because if I didn't think they were safe they wouldn't be in my house in the first place.

TM are women. They can use womens spaces. Their operation is akin to a weird floppy skin extension, more fool them….but they cannot do anything much with it to anyone and I doubt they want to, given that they are women, and women are not statistically dangerous in that sense.

You are aware that all the testosterone that they must take does change their characters somewhat, makes them more aggressive and prone to intense anger, it was a very much developed male-ish personalities

I agree with this. I find this part of the guidance leaves me conflicted. Because in reality, the 6 foot, muscular, intimidating transman is a unicorn. The reality is much more likely to be vulnerable young women and teen girls who wrongly believe they pass, and so will believe themselves unable to use either facility. I understand there had to be some means to mitigate for the very remote possibility a transman could cause distress, but I wish there had been more detail about the circumstances, rather than the wording which indicates their ability to use women's facilities will be down to a subjective judgement as to how well they pass.

I understand what you're saying but it's largely academic.

Yes, in theory, those women are being discriminated against but, in reality, likely to be the only ones in the trans camp to get what they really want - to use opposite sex spaces without issue.

If anything, you could argue that women and transmen are the only.ones to have secured the outcome we/they wanted.

Transmen who don't pass (who will be the majority) will still be able to use the women's.

The guidance is quite clear that no transperson will be put in a position where they have no facilities to use.

I think at the point at which there's nothing left to say but express concern for passing transmen who will be able to use the men's as they wish, it's probably best for everyone to wait and see what the final guidance actually says.

And, tbh, after all the shit, grief, threats of, and actual, violence over the past 10 years, I'm not going to spend too much time worrying about the impact on the people who would have been celebrating in the streets and calling for a national day of trans liberation if the ruling had gone the other way. They certainly wouldn't have been handwringing on a Saturday night about the way that ruling would have impacted women.

We all make choices in life and we all live with the consequences of those choices.

Oh yeah, and you can add to that the continued demands and defiance.

They can worry about themselves.

I agree 100%. This is a terrible part of this ruling, the lack of appropriate detail in such a long judgement is totally unacceptable.

An interesting and not at all unreasonable way to look at things.