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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

580 replies

Akiddleydiveytoo · 23/04/2025 14:46

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
Bloozie · 24/04/2025 16:58

LobeliaBaggins · 24/04/2025 14:28

I mentioned it actually. I dont use a mooncup but some friends do and I have seen them rinse it. But honestly @Bloozie has taken that mention to go off on a tangent about hygiene.

Women need their own loos no matter what we do in them. Especially when the counter argument is that men can have their own loos because they are violent rapists.

It IS a tangent, yes. I'm a bugger for a tangent. But contextually appropriate - I didn't just start talking about mooncups out of nowhere.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe - happy to debate around our points of difference but telling me my posts are odd, questioning my sex... That's playing the player, not the ball, and the idea that everyone that disagrees with you is odd, or must be a man, a trans activist or a trans person because they simply can't be a woman doesn't reflect the diversity of opinion on this issue. Someone else yesterday held me in 'particular contempt' or similar, because women that aren't fully aligned with the groupthink on here, or fully trans exclusionary, are somehow traitors.

None of that is helpful.

LivingInaBuiltSite · 24/04/2025 17:08

Just jumping in with a mooncup comment. I use one and have for years. At work I use the disabled loo as I can use the sink in there. Or I find a single unit space somewhere if I’m out.

Yesterday at work the disabled loo had an out of order sign on the door. I went to the ladies, 2 stalls & an open area with sinks. Emptied my mooncup, tried to sort of wipe it with loo roll - which then wouldn’t come out of the holder thingy - one of those with 2 rolls and you have to slide a thing across to get to the second roll, whole thing jammed and wouldn’t work. I ended up looking like I’d just murdered someone, blood on my hands. Thought fuck it, managed to pull my knickers up, opened the door, sort of waddled to the sink to properly wash my hands, then pull my trousers up properly before sorting myself out.

I was relieved no other woman was in there. I thought about what if a man had been, I’d have felt stuck in the loo and totally embarrassed. Why should I have to consider if a man is in my toilet space?

All men have to stay out and I firmly believe all good men would. Which makes those that intrude the worst kind of men.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 17:10

Justrestup · 24/04/2025 14:34

I know a transman who uses the male (self contained) cubicle at a local pub. There is no urinal in there.

I know 2 transwomen, both many years post op, married to men. Live quiet lives under the radar, no activism. They dress in jeans/trainers/tshirts like me. I have never objected to them using the women’s toilets and still wouldn’t. I know they are biological men and I know the law has to be applied consistently.

I know both would now avoid places they usually go to if they had to use the men’s toilets.

That's a choice though. What about women who have been forced to avoid going to places they would otherwise go to because their single sex spaces include men?

SaveMeFromHumanity · 24/04/2025 17:21

Whatafustercluck · 24/04/2025 12:56

I think this is the point, the debate has been reduced to toilet cubicles. Women are most likely more vulnerable to men pretending to be women in those other scenarios. Women have probably been peeing alongside trans women for decades, we only really got animated when it became clear that all our single sex spaces were now up for grabs.

Women aren't enraged because men are pissing in their loos, they're enraged because they've seen their own sex based rights systematically destroyed by a small, vocal minority. Until recently, we all lived side by side pretty harmoniously.

Absolutely.

It's about the fundamental right to associate with who you wish to and the Equality Act allows for women to meet and organise with other women for whatever reason.

For solidarity, for sharing, for dating, for support, for safety etc. And these people tried to take and, for too long, were successful in taking that right from us. Where the equivalent was NEVER applied to men accepting transmen.

That was the biggest sign to me that this was not about 'trans rights' but about a small minority of men who just weren't going to accept women saying no to them.

And they were allowed to do it.

And it's also why there are so many people still now calling for fundraising to challenge the ruling (I mean, where are they going to take it? Its been agreed at the Supreme Court!) But it just doesn't sit right with an awful lot of people, at a really fundamental level, both men and women, that women have been told its OK to say no to men.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 24/04/2025 17:31

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 16:58

It IS a tangent, yes. I'm a bugger for a tangent. But contextually appropriate - I didn't just start talking about mooncups out of nowhere.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe - happy to debate around our points of difference but telling me my posts are odd, questioning my sex... That's playing the player, not the ball, and the idea that everyone that disagrees with you is odd, or must be a man, a trans activist or a trans person because they simply can't be a woman doesn't reflect the diversity of opinion on this issue. Someone else yesterday held me in 'particular contempt' or similar, because women that aren't fully aligned with the groupthink on here, or fully trans exclusionary, are somehow traitors.

None of that is helpful.

You may be happy to debate around it but I'm not. I can't be bothered any more reading whatabout-this and whatabout-thats. I do find it odd and said so. That's where I stand.

I couldn't care less whether people agree with me or not on any issue but when it gets to the stage where I'm querying whether a poster is a woman, on a thread like this one, there's no common ground to cover.

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 17:45

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 24/04/2025 17:31

You may be happy to debate around it but I'm not. I can't be bothered any more reading whatabout-this and whatabout-thats. I do find it odd and said so. That's where I stand.

I couldn't care less whether people agree with me or not on any issue but when it gets to the stage where I'm querying whether a poster is a woman, on a thread like this one, there's no common ground to cover.

Hmmm. Anyone who has a different opinion to you surely can't be a woman, and you have no desire to find common ground with people that don't agree with you. Cool. Enjoy the echo chamber.

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 17:52

Gender ideology is surely the biggest echo chamber in the world. They kept telling themselves they were right and wouldn't brook any kind of query or disagreement. The mantra was literally 'no debate'.

And all the stuff they kept saying, the mantras, the bingo card stuff - it was all wrong.

That's why I have to laugh when I see this place described as an echo chamber. Project much?

ghostyslovesheets · 24/04/2025 17:57

Honestly it’s all just whataboutary and tangents

the simple reality is women only spaces are for biological women - men are not supposed to be there and can get out.

if that poses a problem for the men who want to identify as women they can sort that problem out themselves - not our circus not our monkeys

just respect our spaces

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 17:58

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 17:52

Gender ideology is surely the biggest echo chamber in the world. They kept telling themselves they were right and wouldn't brook any kind of query or disagreement. The mantra was literally 'no debate'.

And all the stuff they kept saying, the mantras, the bingo card stuff - it was all wrong.

That's why I have to laugh when I see this place described as an echo chamber. Project much?

Gender ideologists and gender critics both have their own echo chambers. There's plenty of 'not interested in speaking to/finding common ground with anyone other than the people that agree with me' to go around.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/04/2025 18:14

ghostyslovesheets · 24/04/2025 17:57

Honestly it’s all just whataboutary and tangents

the simple reality is women only spaces are for biological women - men are not supposed to be there and can get out.

if that poses a problem for the men who want to identify as women they can sort that problem out themselves - not our circus not our monkeys

just respect our spaces

100%.

The fact that is that this group of men who should never have been in women's single sex spaces in the first place

If that annoys them their annoyance is not more significant than the discomfort and risk to women by them being there.

Women come first when it comes to women's single sex spaces.

No matter of arguing the alternative is going to wash with most women. There are a few women who seem determined to put the wishes of the men first, but they will get short shrift from most of us who understand why this is so very important.

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 18:16

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 17:58

Gender ideologists and gender critics both have their own echo chambers. There's plenty of 'not interested in speaking to/finding common ground with anyone other than the people that agree with me' to go around.

That might be a touch more credible if gender ideology had not used the phrase 'no debate', alongside such tactics as deplatforming, disrupting women's rights meetings and pushing for women to be sacked from their jobs

While women fighting for women's rights used the phrase 'operation let them speak'

Fordian · 24/04/2025 18:44

SaveMeFromHumanity · 23/04/2025 15:15

OK.

On the rare occasions that someone 'passes', they will probably continue to use the facilities they always have and go unchallenged.

TM are more likely to pass than TW due to the effects of testosterone on the body.

There are lots of very convincing photos of TM online who appear to pass but when you see them move (eg on video) or with other people, their slightly built (however muscular) 5' 4 frame usually gives them away!

Very few men/women can genuinely pass as the opposite sex. Even those who get close have an 'uncanny valley' element to them.

The ruling is more important for the aspect that it allows us to say no and state the bleeding obvious without fear of losing our jobs or being gaslit by national organisations.

Some organisations will continue to offer access to TW but they will have to announce that they are doing so rather than just advertising as being open to 'women'.

And organisations or events which don't want to include TW will no longer have to.

No one is being erased. Most importantly, not women.

As far as men and TW go. That's for them to sort out. Women are not responsible for men.

^ this^

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 19:13

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 18:16

That might be a touch more credible if gender ideology had not used the phrase 'no debate', alongside such tactics as deplatforming, disrupting women's rights meetings and pushing for women to be sacked from their jobs

While women fighting for women's rights used the phrase 'operation let them speak'

For the love of Lord. I told one person who explicitly told me that she didn't want to engage with, or find common ground with, someone that doesn't agree with her - to enjoy her echo chamber.

Because that's the definition of an echo chamber.

And there can be more than one.

I understand the passion and conviction of many people in this thread. The immediate hostility to anyone that expresses a different view is unnecessary.

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 19:19

Bloozie - 17.45

'Hmmm. Anyone who has a different opinion to you surely can't be a woman, and you have no desire to find common ground with people that don't agree with you. Cool. Enjoy the echo chamber.' (my bolds)

Bloozie · 24/04/2025 19:28

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 19:19

Bloozie - 17.45

'Hmmm. Anyone who has a different opinion to you surely can't be a woman, and you have no desire to find common ground with people that don't agree with you. Cool. Enjoy the echo chamber.' (my bolds)

If someone doesn't want to engage with other people's views to the point where they explicitly say so, they're in an echo chamber. Their echo chamber, the echo chamber, an echo chamber... You fettling away at the difference between definite articles and possessive pronouns in an attempt to score a point doesn't alter the fact that the poster only wishes to engage with views that align with her own, and is therefore in an echo chamber, and she was the only person I encouraged to enjoy said echo chamber.

(Run the above para through a spellcheck. You might find a typo or something you can point out to put me in my place!)

Waitwhat23 · 24/04/2025 19:30

(Run the above para through a spellcheck. You might find a typo or something you can point out to put me in my place!)

No need. Operation let them speak works just fine.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 24/04/2025 19:45

Just because someone doesn’t want to engage any further with a particular poster it doesn’t mean they are in or want an echo chamber

i have seen posts from posters who believe that TWAW saying exactly the same thing

Justrestup · 24/04/2025 21:20

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 17:10

That's a choice though. What about women who have been forced to avoid going to places they would otherwise go to because their single sex spaces include men?

Completely agree. It’s why I said the law needs to be applied consistently. But that doesn’t stop me being upset for my friends on an individual, human level.

Grammarnut · 24/04/2025 23:49

lljkk · 23/04/2025 14:56

Nobody guards the toilets now and checks what is between legs to allow entry, and those body parts especially don't get shown in women's toilets. It's rude in the mens to eye up another guy's tadger so typically also not obvious what they do or don't have. So rarely would anyone know if the person has the expected body parts, in reality most people can go where they most fit in at moment.

I've encountered men in ladies toilets before because they misunderstood the signage... amusing not annoying. I'd rather nobody, no strangers, heard me wee, being male or female doesn't really matter in comparison.

On balance, I suspect my life is too short to dwell on this. Toilets: I especially don't care if they are European style, floor to ceiling separation. Maybe that style of toilet is what will become the norm.

Only one of the swimming pools I go to has women regularly appearing in the nude, which is a choice they make & others can avoid as they prefer. Most pools have "mixed" changing rooms so you don't see any nudity except on under 5s.

I support protecting women's sport as single sex and domestic violence shelters need options, too, but this obsession about monitoring who uses which toilets... omg. Leave it.

Toilets are hugely important since without single sex toilets many women cannot leave home. We need to urinate more often than men, because we have shorter urethras and we suffer the problems of pregnancy and childbirth, as well as having to deal with periods.
There has never been a problem identifying women from men until the last 5 years. Honestly, it's not hard. TiFs don't really pass (I know 2 and I know they are women), any more than TiMs do, being usually very slight etc. Third spaces are the answer for TiMs if they don't like the men's - but I don't see them campaigning for this, which suggests they don't 'just want to pee', using the women's loo is about validation and making women uncomfortable. TiFs are welcome in female spaces, however, because they are female.

Jumpingthruhoops · 25/04/2025 00:07

What I've become aware of - since following this debate and had certainly never realised before - is that very few transpeople have 'bottom' surgery. Which has confused me greatly as I was always of the belief that is what's meant by 'transition'.

As far as I'm concerned, transitioning is about a lot more than switching from trousers to dresses, the issue of transwomen being in female-only spaces is because, while many may undergo 'top surgery', facial feminisation surgery, hormone treatment alongside changing their hair, wear makeup, dresses etc to become more 'female, they'll likely still have a penis. This is why women object to sharing their spaces with them.

PurpleChrayn · 25/04/2025 00:11

Nobody cares about them. Funny that. It’s almost as if they’re… women.

Smurphy99 · 25/04/2025 04:20

How are some people saying you wouldn’t know? you can literally ALWAYS tell. Deep voice, Adam’s apple, 6 foot 3, size 11 feet, strangely not quite right facial features, it’s just blindingly obvious.

Smurphy99 · 25/04/2025 04:22

Akiddleydiveytoo · 23/04/2025 15:22

For all those saying they could 'tell' if a person is a trans man - could you really though? If any of these people walked into a ladies toilet would you really be able to tell and would you really feel comfortable with them in there?

Yes I could. They’ve got feminine facial features, that same kind of strange facial hair that’s always extremely scruffy and patchy, a usually pitched voice, small hands and feet and they’re 5”2.

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 06:56

What I've become aware of - since following this debate and had certainly never realised before - is that very few transpeople have 'bottom' surgery. Which has confused me greatly as I was always of the belief that is what's meant by 'transition'.

Tbh, I think that's what most people thought.

I think thats why so many people (especially women) have been so supportive - if someone is willing to go to those lengths...

I think it'd also what people believe when they say, "As if any man is going to transition just to get into women's spaces to attack them."

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 08:58

My personal feeling is that you can usually tell. But the problem with people claiming that they can always tell is that they simply wouldn't ever know if they hadn't.

But this is generally only applicable to transmen as the very, very vast majority of transwomen just don't pass due to the effects of testosterone and there aren't really all that many having their faces peeled back for facial feminisation surgery.

Transmen have been described in extremes on here over the past week - they're always either 6 foot tall, muscular and with a full beard (so you can never tell) or 5'2 delicate things with tiny hands and wispy facial hair (so you can always tell). When the majority of transmen will fall between those two extremes.

But it's OK because the ruling made it clear that transmen who genuinely pass can also be refused entry to female spaces and that they are fine to continue to use male spaces for their own comfort and the comfort of other women.

And thats because, despite what the protesters would have people believe, the ruling was about protecting women's rights. It wasn't an 'anti trans' ruling and transpeople haven't been written or spoken out of existence.

All this post ruling trans rhetoric about big burly men being able to enter women's toilets and just claim to be transmen is nonsense because transmen who genuinely present as 'big burly men' shouldn't be in the women's spaces either!

And, as many people have said before, we've knowingly been using the loos alongside transwomen for years and most people didn't give it much thought as long as people were respectful. Its only been in the last 10 years that we've had a situation where we've had to pretend they were actually women and they have been allowed to have us kicked out of women's spaces or denied medical treatment or made criminals or sacked for recognising that they are male.

And had the language around womenhood (chestfeeding, pregnant people, cervix havers) changed. Along with the complete fetishisation of womanhood and gloats of, "I'm a better woman that you'll ever be because i perform femininity more than you do"

Alongside, the invasion of women's sports and the nonsense of people being encouraged and permitted to change their birth sex on legal documents and by the NHS which has resulted in ridiculous situations and death (TW demanding nurses perform smear tests on them despite not having a vagina or a cervix and a transman who died because she had registered as male and the hospital had treated her as such. This meant that they made the wrong diagnosis - via blood tests - and she didn't get the treatment she needed).

NHS hospitals that have changed the zebra crossings, which are black and white and easy to see for visually impaired people to rainbow striped ones, which aren't. Police dancing at Pride festivals and pretending they haven't seen male violence if it's committed by the right sort of man whilst visiting women who have used the wrong words.

People conflating LGB issues, which are about sexuality, with T+ issues which are about identify, which means that members of the LGB community have been negatively impacted by the trans demands because some people lump them all together. Or the T issues not being dealt with appropriately because, "This is just like people's attitude towards gay rights in the 80s," when it's completely different. And when the LGB Alliance was set up to prioritise the LGB without the T, the T went for them too. We've all read about the 'Cotton Ceiling' and language calling lesbians (never gay men) 'genital fetishists'. Young lesbians being coerced into having sex with transwomen with a penis for fear of being seen as 'exclusionary'.

The poor woman who was told they couldn't have been raped because she was on a women's ward and there were no men on there. When she knew she'd been raped and a year later it turned out that one of the women was a special new with a penis woman rather than be suppprted as a rape victim. Or women in courts who've had to refer to their rapist as 'she'. Or just general basic safeguarding requirements being ignored if the person breaking them was a transwoman or if a child said they were trans. Schools that were encouraged to socially transition children and not tell their parents (for safeguarding reasons in case their parents were TERFs). Parents who only found out their daughter was now their 'son' when they received the end of year report or went to parents evening - as per the DfE guidance at the time.

Many people don't actually give a shit about loos and would happily have continued to use them alongside men in dresses just having a wee and washing their hands (or at least tolerated it), which I think is why the loo thing has been focused on so much precisely because it obscures the actual issues.

It forces women to talk about the potential for rape and sexual assault which, whilst happens far more often than it should, isn't happening to all of us all the time. So the counter argument is always, "How many..?" And, "If a man wants to rape a woman, he'll just go into the women's loos anyway." And yes, one is too many but, like I say, it obscures the issues because the vast majority of women (whatever their experience elsewhere) haven't been sexually assaulted in a public loo by.anyone and that's what is always focused on.

So we now have infighting between women, women denying that other women can ever have a masculine appearance naturally; or claiming that you can always tell a transman when the likelihood is that you probably can't; or denying other women's experiences of being mistaken for a man when, away from trans threads, there have been several other threads where women have described being called, "Sir" and mistaken for men if they're taller, bigger and don't wear feminine clothing.

But this is all a result of the trans agenda.

People are scrutinising others more because the social contract has massively broken down and it has created a huge mistrust amongst women and probably some men. Women arguing about, "Well, where do women who've been through the menopause sit because they don't have periods?" Or, "Where do women who have severe hormonal conditions go because sometimes they present with more typically male characteristics?" Women's spaces. Because they're women!

What it means to be a man or a woman has become so extreme in some respects and based on being able to tell that we have people talking about all men being 6'+, having broad shoulders and a masculine jawline (when many aren't and don't) or women having tiny delicate frames and feminine features (when not all of them do) and we all know those people in real life and some of us are those people. So the debate ends up making some people feel ostracised from and by their own sex.

And now we have women with severe PCOS being challenged in women's toilets for not looking 'stereotypically female' enough and being upset with other women for that and other women angry back at them in return. And others angry because they feel women with hormonal conditions are being seen as 'ambiguous'. Whereas, previously, people would just have trusted that they were female no questions asked.

All the ruling did was give women back the right to say, "No," to men and not be forced and gaslit into pretending a lie is the truth.

The whole movement has caused such damage to people's perceptions, tolerance and trust in each other society at large and that is what is going to take time to repair.

It's.not just about toilets and toilets are the very thin end of the wedge.