AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

TL;DR:

The ruling has been made. Whatever your personal beliefs are.and, whatever your personal feelings are, the decision was made for the good and the protection of all women. Regardless of their appearance, presentation, height, weight, health status, stage in life and who they work with or who their friends are etc.

I'm not confused or surprised that the trans movejtngaijed such traction. We all know why that was.

But I'm baffled by the number of women who have experienced extreme cognitive dissonance over this and the extreme pandering to men by some.

I don't hate anyone. There are a few I'm glad I'll never cross paths with, though! And I don't want anyone to be 'unsafe'. And I've no interest in 'erasing' anyone.

What I would like is for women to come together in this and for there to be less of the polarised infighting which has come about precisely because of the movement.

If third spaces in all areas of life had become the norm 10+ years ago, I don't think there's a single woman who would genuinely and seriously believe that men should have been in women's spaces at all. And there would be no handwringing about transmen because there'd be no issue. And we'd have all bobbed along nicely together.

Let's hope that it doesn't take another 10 years to achieve that!

I'm also surprised and disappointed in women and their desire to put men and their feelings first. A single sex space shouldn't need explanation or caveats. The idea of Schrodingers transman (any of the gender threads over the past 10 years even mention transmen before?), who is a danger to women, is stupid and just more gaslighting by men and their beards who want to force themselves into womens spaces. Once the gaslighting has been seen it can't be unseen. Men have no business in women's single sex spaces no matter what they are wearing or what thoughts or intentions they have in their heads. No means no.

To clear that up, I just didn't want to engage with your views.

I'm not in any echo chamber and happy to discuss otherwise I wouldn't be on a chatboard in the first place.

So much BS on this thread.

the SC ruling was clear, TransMen can also be excluded from female spaces if they are very masculine presenting.

The MOJ statistics are clear, Transwomen do not have a lower pattern of criminality than other males. In fact the MOJ stats show that in the prison population the % of sexual offending are higher than the male population of prison who don’t identify as trans.

These are facts.

I think that there is a mixing of issues. Many women dont care too much about the toilet / changing room in shops issue. They are aware that you cant see much. For Many ( obvs not all) the issues is more about transwomen taking the place of women on boards, in sports, in jobs and then saying they have the right as they are women. It takes away from women.
Womens sports for example, if bio man compete against bio women, women lose out.
If a bio man can be awared female of the year, a bio woman loses out.
If a bio man can be given a job and it it said that a woman has it, it messes up the statistics of women being held back
If a bio male Dr can say their needs for safety / security/ respect trumps the needs / wants of bio women for the same area, it breeds resentment.

But, it is never bio women who want to be men that are taking the place of men.

I'm going to join in. Weirdly had a "heated discussion" with a friends husband last night on this very topic. Just reading the tweets about TERFS someone posted was horrifying enough sends a very clear message to be that we do not want these individuals anywhere female spaced. And why are these people not being arrested for these posts.

Because they're (generally) men. Speaking up in defence of (almost exlcusively) men. Against women who they really believe ought not to he in a position of thinking they can say no men.

In a nutshell.

I suspect that was the crux of your heated debate too.

He was very aggressive and said Transwomen were not a problem. I was truly truly shocked by those tweets. When we have a mother in prison for saying a lot less about illegal migrants ( stupidly) is serving a 30 month sentence. Yet these individuals are saying openly they would murder and torture woman.

You are entirely wrong. I have read all 88 pages of the SC ruling. Trans men cannot legally, and in my opinion should not be excluded from women's single sex spaces.
The SC ruling quite clearly states that sex is biological sex and as the biological sex of a trans man is female they are allowed all the protection of women under the Equalities Act 2010. Their presentation however masculine is absolutely irrelevant. Many lesbians are also quite masculine presenting are you suggesting they can also be excluded from women only spaces?
This sudden worry about trans men in women's spaces is absolute nonsense. They are biological women who deserve the same rights as the rest of women whether they identify as men or not.

The EHRC guidance clarifies that "in some circumstances" transwomen and transmen can be excluded from single sex spaces.

Those circstances weren't clarified but I imagine it will be to cover the fact that, where someome does, in fact, pass as the opposite sex (usually only transmen) they will be able to be excluded on the basis they appear to be male.

This will protect businesses who ask a passing transmen to leave female toilets (for example).from being sued and also prevents the situation whereby a man can enter the women's toilets claiming to be a transman (as all.the TRAs have spent the last 10 days telling us will definitely happen).

My best friend is a 'masculine presenting lesbian' but also quite clearly female - as has been every masculine presenting lesbian I've personally ever met so I think they'll be OK.

I believe this is what is called a strawman argument because biological men and women are usually recognisable whatever they are wearing. And men and women are not going to be permitted or denied entry on their ability or willingness to conrform to sterotyped ideas of 'masculinity' or 'femininity'.

Women 0don't care about transmen being in women's spaces. This is a TRA attempt at a 'gotcha' and should just be ignored.

Youve read it wrong

they can be excluded

do i think they should be ?

no

are they ? Yes

Transmen are women. I don't consider them much of a threat to women's spaces. That said I could understand if a TM looked like a man that could at best make women feel uncomfortable in a women only space or at worse be triggering trauma responses.

I do think it best that we all use the spaces designed for our bio sex. Less trouble caused that way. Less drama.

The SC ruling says nowhere that trans people of either sex can EVER be excluded from the single sex spaces afforded to THEIR biological sex only that of the OTHER sex, hence what the ECHR guidance says . There is literally no confusion here I think you have misunderstood. It of course has said that trans women can be excluded from women's single sex spaces and trans men from men only spaces but each has the right to be in the space of their biolofcal natal sex. Their appearance has NOTHING to do with this right.
To exclude a trans man (bio woman) from a women only space would be against the law.

I do totally agree with you about the straw men situation though.

According to the law trans women are NOT women. You may not feel threatened by them but others do and now their presence in women only spaces can finally be called out and not before time.

To exclude a trans man (bio woman) from a women only space would be against the law

i think you might be wrong about this bit

I have not read this wrong you have misunderstood. All biological women can be present is single sex spaces reserved for women whether they identify as men or not. Where trans men can no longer be is in spaces designated only for men, which means biological men.
If I'm wrong, please quote me from the SC ruling as to where it says anything to the contrary of what I've said please. I read the whole document. The ruling is quite clear.

Please don’t use the made up term ‘cis’. It’s women.

I know TW are not women. I never said otherwise ? Btw I have PTSD from abuse as a child and adult, sexual and domestic. I'm sure if I met a TW in a woman's space it would affect me. That would never happen in a toilet for me as I don't use the women's or men's but I don't doubt it would affect others .

You are wrong

but i can’t be arsed to prove it 😀

i am sure someone will be around in a bit

100 % not wrong the ruling says that people have to stick to their biological spaces in cases of designated single sex spaces, which in the case of trans men is women's spaces. Read the ruling. I have.
It is quite clear that trans men should not be in men only spaces but can and should use women's spaces and trans women should not be in women only spaces but can and should use men only spaces.

The guidance also states that "in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities"

When asked to clarify this, the EHRC pointed to a section of the Supreme Court ruling stating that trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken" in the context of a women-only service.

Turns out i can be arsed…who knew

Lemon I am so sorry I misread you post. I am an absolute arse, many apologies. I'm so sorry for your experiences.
I hope you've found a way to cope x

If you want to be wilfully ignorant that's your perogative.

And refusal to back up your idea of the truth with - you know any actual facts, is telling and also a bit Trumpian. But have a nice evening.

I did back it up….right under the cant be arsed post…with actual facts 😱

go back and reread