AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

19:39

<#helpful>

I really truly honestly don’t care if I have to share loos - or changing rooms even - w transwomen - or transmen. It’s a loo and there are far worse threats in the world from actual sexual predators & those predators will always find a way to assault.
It is such a non issue to me (AND i have a teen daughter). Truly.
(and i know I’m now in for a verbal shitstorm potentially, but it won’t change my mind. Just show other people’s colours and prejudice. Sorry, not sorry)

The only shitstorm I would lob at you: it's not about toilets or changing rooms.

How would you feel about your teen daughter spending a night in a ward with men?

Well you have a right to your opinion. But just as it's ok for you to not mind, it's ok for others to mind. If TW or TM are offended by this, that's a shame but there is nothing to stop them campaigning for third spaces or gender neutral bathrooms. Tolerance has to go both ways. Hopefully that way everybody's rights and needs are catered for.

TRA need to realise it's a question of "we can agree to disagree respectfully." I'm not sure why one group of people should have to set themselves on fire to keep another group warm.

Again and again, the focus is on toilets. The cry of 'we just need to pee!!!' which appears to have turned into 'I'll just piss all over the floor then, bigot!'

But not -

Rape crisis services
Domestic violence refuges
Single sex hospital wards
Sleeping accommodation on school trips/guide camps

Is it because those are a bit harder to justify in terms of allowing males access to avoid hurting his feelings?

I'll re read the SC ruling if I find the bit you claim is there I'll be happy to apologise.

You don’t need to apologise, its ok for either of us to be mistaken about this

This. 100% this.

How does it harm a TW or TM to keep to refuges, hospitals, rape crisis centres, prisons , homeless hostels for their bio sex? If anything it helps them. They get services catered for their actual needs based on who they are, biologically. That's as it should be.

Although id rather not be called trumpian !

That is very gracious of you. I got a bit over excitable and overly strident and if wrong deserve to be called out. I really hope I'm not wrong though - not because I don't like being wrong, but because that would be a vile misogynistic ruling. You don't look womanly enough for the women's area, even though you are an actual woman, so off you trot. Just grim 😥

I can understand that naepalz

its not something i like either

It's there.

The logic is that if a trans man actually passes (which most of them don't, let's be honest), his presence in a women only single sex space is going to distress the female users of that space for the same reason that the presence of an actual man would distress them. It defeats the purpose of the single sex space from their point of view (because they have no way of knowing that he is female).

With a transwoman/transwomen? Absolutely fine!! To me & us, they’re transwomen - not men.

Absolutely fine w others having their opinion. The debate gets so acrimonious v quickly & you rarely hear the “I really don’t mind” one - which is mine :) - so lobbed it out there.
To me, and my family, transwomen are transwomen and not men.
Transmen are transmen - and not women.
And a bit of deep breathing for the outliers of loudness (either end!!) in the debate would be good for everyone.

I dont think you can make that decision for the rest of us though.
Who believe transwomen are men. And are now supported by the SC.
There can be mixed spaces for those happy to share, and single sex spaces for women and girls who need them.

Sorry out of order 😳

As it is biological men who are largely the threat to women most of us have no problems with biological women who are identifying as male even if they have gone through the whole legal process to change gender (which changes gender but not sex) and even if they have some kind of surgery to get a type of fake pe nis put on there.

Oh - and shock horror! We are also fine w having our teen’s transfemale (MtF for clarity) over and staying over etc. She’s identifying as a transfemale 100% and is a “female friend” to our kid and has been since they were 11, so we’re fine.
And I took her to the ladies loo at the Billie Eilish concert 3 years ago - at 14 - nobody batted an eyelid.

and a bit of deep breathing for the outliers of loudness (either end!!) in the debate would be good for everyone.

Seen many of these from 'the other end'? Or is the threats of violence from one end only?

(And these are only a small selection of placards from recent protests. Similar go back years)

(Edited to make it clear that I was quoting a pp)

I’m not. I’m stating my opinion amd amswering your question. Not dictating what you or others have to do. So wind your neck in w the ‘telling others what to do’ - or don’t ask Qs you don’t want answers to :)

💐

They transitioned at 11?

Bore off - there are absolutely shrill and wrong arsehats at either end of the debate.

What you do with your own house and bathroom is your business. Nobody cares. My kids also have trans friends.
I do care about women's safe spaces, though.

Seeing transwomen as transwomen does not mean condoning appaling behviour from either “side”. That’s a silly atgument and not a very productive one either.