To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

It is a gamble @AquaPeerbut equally the highly individual narcissistic world we have now isn’t really doing much for a lot of people either.

I am ashamed of myself for a particular action I took in my 20s, and I believe I am right to feel ashamed of that, it had a lot of consequences on other people that they didn’t deserve. I’m not beating myself up about it these days (it was nearly 30 years ago) but it’s quietly there and I hope informs my actions in a positive way.

I don’t know if anyone else was ashamed of me, though. Disappointed and upset, yes. And rightly so.

I’ve answered this a number of times

someone should not let their dog shit outside your house.

whether they feel ashamed of doing it is irrelevant.

you are convinced that if people feel shame they will stop doing the thing you don’t want them to do.

That is flawed logic

Shame people is a form of controlling them, as many others have said

This. I have just realised what I dislike about the concept and that's the implication that shame is a legitimate tool to control society or individuals.....That it was EVER a beneficial thing to do things because the neighbours or the village will judge and shame you if you don't. Teaching respect, kindness and concern for others? great. Do as you would be done by? fine! Approving and praising people of all ages for good behaviour, again fine. Consequences for antisocial behaviour also fine. but shaming no, that's abuse.

You're confusing 'shaming' with difference of opinion.

Which is what I said upthread. That the idea of 'shaming' was originally a response to society where celebrities or just every day folks were subject to a societal response to their lives.

So a woman with multiple sexual partners would be considered a slut by a lot of society and their lives negatively appraised, when men aren't subjected to the same societal opinions. So slut-shaming. Which was extremely important when victims of rape or any kind of sexual abuse were deemed as unlikely to be telling the truth because of their sexual history.

Then it veered into the idea that anyone who was disagreed with or other people had negative opinions about their choices had been 'shamed' .

You weren't 'shamed'. People just just thought your wedding/birthday whatever was flashy.

No-one is ever going to have all of their choices validated by other people. That doesn't mean they were 'shamed'.

People don't feel shame because no one is allowed to judge or pull people up on appalling behaviour any more because we don't know what's going on in their lives..... It seems to be a get out clause for every piece of bad behaviour for some reason. Heaven forfend that my mother has just died but I can still find a way not to be an obnoxious aresehole, or I get asked to move seats on a plane without screaming like a banshee.

That's another factor.

The societal push from governments in part (and more on social media where it gets twisted into unrecognisable things) - to have greater understanding of mental health, neurodevelopmental conditions and trauma SHOULD have led to an improvement for individuals and society when it's actually backfired greatly.

Higher waiting lists, some like ASC/ADHD which can't be managed by literally any health system. Unprecedented amounts of children not being in school, adults not being in work, disability benefit claims and a public obsession with virtually everyone having ir identifying as having some kind of condition or emotional state which explains their behaviour. Including terrible behaviour.

Which even if it were to be true does not and should not in any way excuse their behaviour which causes distress or harm to others and is actually irrelevant.

But again - some people are out of control. They can’t control themselves to behave in society - they’re not breaking the law (we really shouldn’t need laws to make people decent, considerate members of society, but perhaps that’s the shameless world we now live in, where we have to now depend on the rule of law rather than the “rule” of society? I don’t think that’s an improvement.) but their behaviour is, in my opinion, detrimental to society and to wellbeing.

We have in many ways thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The pendulum of correction swings too far, and balance needs to be regained.

you are convinced that if people feel shame they will stop doing the thing you don’t want them to do.

No I'm not.

I'm asking you a straight question.

Again, do you think they should feel shame?

It's a yes or no answer, yet you keep swerving it.

Why is that?

because its a "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.

I don’t know who you think you are tbh demanding answers and berating me that the ones I give are not good enough. I’ve made it clear I don’t think they should do it. I dont think anyone “should” feel ashamed, I’m not controlling and crazy enough to expect certain private emotions of others to satisfy me.

It’s not your place to control them though is it?

We have a legal system to prevent and punish crime and outside of that we don’t get to control the way other adults behave.

@Ddakji what are they doing that is detrimental to society that warrants shaming them but is not breaking the law?

Of course and you don't need to ask.
Examples that come to mind. Scruffy gardens and front steps etc.
Cars that are so dirty you can't read the registration plate which is illegal.

Cars parking where they shouldn't and getting parking tickets, the next day you seem them in the space again and they don't care.
People talking on the bus on the phone.
You would have been to embarrassed, that's why they had public phone boxes, you didn't want anyone to hear all your chatter.

So finally you've been honest.

You don't think anyone should feel shame for letting their dog shit on the pavement outside your house, and not pick up after them.

You're entitled to think that obviously, but thinking a dog owner shouldn't be ashamed of their disgusting (and dangerous) behaviour is utterly bizarre.

Anyway, thanks for finally clarifying.

I repeated that at least 4 times, maybe you should try reading posts.

should people who don’t understand posts be ashamed of their lack of comprehension skills, eh? 🙄

No you didn't.

You just kept skirting around it and saying they shouldn't be doing it.

You refused to say you think they shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, for not clearing up their dog's shit.

Now you finally have 🤷‍♂️

I agree that you can't dictate how others should feel even if it is necessary to dictate how people should or shouldn't act.

The social contract “controls” people, until some decided that it shouldn’t. It’s what kept male people out of female spaces for decades. They would be “shamed” for being somewhere they didn’t belong.

Your use of “control” is an attempt to shut down discussion, in my opinion.

Yes I agree. Some people seem to have lost any sense of pride in themselves.🤷‍♀️

Are you one of those people who thinks that unless something is against the law anything goes? If someone has a bonfire on a lovely day and stinks out 10 sets of neighbours from their homes and gardens? Or blasts out deafening music for hours but it’s before 11pm?

See I think that most people are going to be controlled by a social contract but the social contract has to benefit the person. If you feel shunned or left out of a social contract regardless of what you do then there is little point in submitting to it.

Oooh, I agree, OP! Shame is good! I scrub my doorstep every morning and I make sure I'm seen doing it! Unlike that slattern at Number 37, I might add, whose doorstep has never been scrubbed in its life! I don't know how her Norman stands it. Shame of the street, she is. When she moved in and wasn't seen scrubbing on her first morning, I said to my Stan, "There goes the neighbourhood, our Stan!"

both of those can be against the law if done regularly.

AND she hangs her drawers out at the end of the garden where evryone can see them and on a sunday and have you SEEN those drawers??? not decent celanese with a double thickness gusset for her oh no! red satin dental floss...I said to our Stan I didn't know where to put my face when I saw them and you know what Stan said? He said "He betted he would" well thats him on the couch for the next week and longer if he doesn't think on AND lucky its the couch and not the coal shed.