To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

I think there is a difference between feeling shame for things that were/are outside your control (so you shouldn’t feeling shame because of your childhood because you weren’t in control) and feeling shame for actions that are absolutely in our control.

A poster upthread has said that she doesn’t really care about the impact of her actions on strangers because they’re strangers. That to me is something to be ashamed of. A bit of consideration goes a long way to making our society better for everyone.

Did you even read the bit where I said I try to behave decently for personal moral reasons? There's only two paragraphs in my post.

Your personal morals are clearly limited if you had to query why your mother was conscious of disturbing the neighbours. Cheeky.

I was 14.

I agree and disagree. Personally, it’s very important to me to be polite as I want to make others feel good and I hope to be well liked. That said, there is certainly an element of social anxiety that can feel like a huge hurdle when I feel caught between what is best for me/my family and how we are perceived. I’d like to be free of that. But, it’s circular, as surely I want others to be mindful of me! My husband and I get very annoyed when his family treat us like we are low on the family hierarchy - especially if we’ve just gone out of our way to make them feel special. There’s something to be said about the reciprocation - it all seems to break down and go ‘rudely’ when behaviour is one way. When we have decided to say ‘no’ or even just do something surprising (and wonderful) in our personal life - it feels like the people who wish they were brave enough to do the same get irritated.

The promotion of individual rights, but no individual responsibility, has resulted in a society where people think only about what is good for themselves and no longer care how their behaviour impacts on anyone else. Ironically, the long term results harm the individual too.
The promotion of 'self' and personal entitlement is why anti social behaviour has increased. There are no consequences for blaring loud music or littering or shoplifting etc.
What has improved is that people can be gay or have children outside of marriage or leave abusive men and not be shamed for that. Unfortunately the pendulum has swung so far though, that there is no shame attached to actions where there should be embarrassment. Men can dodge child support, people can cheat on spouses etc and 'society' no longer shames them for this. Society no longer condemns morally bankrupt behaviour and it should imo.

Manners oil the wheels of social interaction and it's to our detriment that we are losing ours. They make our day a little bit nicer. I do agree though that the social contract has been broken - working hard and doing your best at school and generally behaving in a decent manner, no longer gets you the agreed benefits of a home and a comfortable lifestyle. Or even timely medical treatment! Our young people especially (but all of us really) are being told they can't rely on society to do right by them, so why should they give a crap about doing the right things?

Pyjamas were traditionally night clothes and were not until recently worn in public.However they have crossed over into loungewear which is why people wear them out more.

I remember as a very drunk student in the late 80’s going to the chippy in my pj’s. Everyone stared at me.

Just thinking of my mum scrubbing the front step to avoid the shame.

My family did the front step thing too and clean curtains were also really important. I think it's different when your neighbours are people you know and maybe even help out now and then. I think they didn't want to "let the street down" if that makes sense.

But you’re not 14 now, are you? Being indifferent to others because they’re strangers seems a fairly adolescent mindset.

Yes, exactly.

I haven’t but just looked it up and now of course I have to watch it! 😄

All I can do is try to behave politely despite the indifference, which I do very well as an adult. I don't push past elderly people to get a seat, I say thank you in shops, I'm a fairly quiet person in any case.

I do wonder if social contract breakdown and isolation plays into this. Growing up my parents were quite insular and I never really saw them interact with other people much. I think I'd have benefited from seeing this sort of behaviour modelled as I genuinely didn't see any need to consider how my behaviour impacted strangers at that age.

I think people feel shame. I think it is shame itself that drives at least some poor behaviour.

They literally said they were a teenager at the time. It’s in the first few sentences.

No it does not. Having standards is one thing or being aware of your impact on others, feeling shame means you think you are a bad person. A bad person for your child not having polished shoes, that is ridiculous.

The concept of shame is not necessarily a bad thing.

In the way that the OP has used the term here, I agree with her. If paedophiles felt a strong sense of shame, they would not practice outside of their own homes for example.

I agree with OP, if more people felt 'shame' or something akin to it, life would be better for all because a lot of people behave 'shamelessly' and make others lives difficult.

Maybe it depends where you are. I'm currently on the Elizabeth line sitting opposite a young woman who is watching Hells Kitchen at top volume on her phone. It's this complete lack of awareness or perhaps lack of caring that the whole carriage doesn't want to hear Gordon Ramsay bellowing across the train.

This isn't unusual on the tube I find.

Edited to add: The woman on the other side of me is now taking a video call and bellowing into her phone.

I think shame is an important human feeling that we now look to shy away from too much. You can be ashamed of what you have done or how you have behaved but not let it define you as a person. You can use it to inform how you choose to act in the future and ultimately this will make you a better person.

I am absolutely fed up of people trying to shut down debate or honest discussion by accessing others of 'shaming' people as if this is some terrible thing. Actually sometimes you should feel shame and be motivated to change. If you successfully do this then you will feel a sense of pride which is the opposite of shame. The alternative is to hide from the shame, never really confront what you're doing and stay in a rut of bad decision making and treating other people badly.

Gordon has just informed whoever he is speaking to in ringing tones that they are a bunch of fucking pricks...

Agree this. I remember the older generation having such interesting conversation and being so knowledgable about so much. My own dad left school at 14 but loved nothing better than reading an encyclopaedia.

Yes I did read that part of the post, but you also said "if I'm honest I do feel very indifferent to the people around me because most of them are just strangers" and also that when you were a teenager you couldn't see why you should show any consideration to your neighbours because you didn't know them. It shouldn't matter if people are strangers they still deserve a bit of respect. Being a teenager is not an excuse to be rude, and being indifferent to people because they are strangers is not the sort of society I wish to be a part of.

I think I’d volley their phones out of the nearest window. Go on, I dare you! 😉

Now I’m thinking about it again, I recall the year before last being in hospital and a woman watching Hollyoaks on full volume opposite me all night and ignoring her newborn twins. That was irritating. Her phone was more of a disturbance on the ward than any babies. This was in my nearest big city (a reasonable drive) so perhaps I am a little sheltered also.

So? I was considerate of others when I was a teenager and didn't think I could behave however I liked towards others just because I didn't know them.

Perhaps the intellectual environment HAS been dumbed down?

UK television used to be superb, with a vast range of entertainment and informative content, from Benny Hill to Lord Clark. I can't remember when I last watched UK terrestrial broadcast TV because unscripted idiocy has become the norm. TV is now so slow and plodding because every nuance now has to be bludgeoned home, and that can only be because the audience is either ignorant or stupid. Otherwise, the programme makers and commissioners would realise that audiences were deserting them and commission something else.