To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

Well I can't go back in time and change my attitude to please you. Luckily I only feel indifferent towards you.

And the problem is, when you take that knowledge away, you also lose the ability to reason and take on board others’ view points.

I'm not sure it is any worse. Didn't people throw shit out of their windows and not wash for days just 400 years ago.
Potentially, the 50s and 60s were the peak of human decorum and then it's a gradual slide back to humanity being just a bit gross.

I’m in London and my experience has shown me that lack of consideration around phones with their volume on and no headphones (equalling a total lack of shame at their behaviour) cuts across all demographics - young, old, black, white, British, foreign, male, female. All guilty. All shameless.

Who said anything about carrying on the same behaviour?

You seem to be wriggling around whenever anyone asks you this or a similar question.

So, if someone's dog shits outside your house and the owner doesn't pick it up (ok then, just once), should they not feel ashamed?

It's a perfectly simple question.

Yes, of course.

I didn't say otherwise?

I said it was sexist.

I suppose "were you raised by wolves?" is a more gender neutral way to say the same thing.

"Did your parents never teach you".

Wolves sound a little more interesting but not as relevant

@PluckyBamboo

I would prefer kids are empowered to be themselves that brought up to feel a life of shame or embarrassment for things that aren't really important in the grand scale of things

Where do you draw the line? I'm sure the little shits feel empowered when they chuck maccy D wrappers out of the car, or drop litter, speed in their soop-ed up VW Golfs, or vandalise a bus shelter or break someone's window with a brick or bully someone who doesn't look like them. But is that acceptable?? What is "important in the grand scale of things"? You may not think being polite and having manners is "important", but I'm sure the majority do!

I've never even thought of wolves as particularly rude. Don't they have a strict social hierarchy in their packs? I digress.

I do think it starts at home though. It's why I'm cynical about the my little family mentality that seems even more common now along with the fetishization of introversion. Good luck teaching your kids social responsibilities when they never see you positively interact with someone outside of the family unit.

Exactly @WhatNoRaisins

I completely agree.

My post earlier was regarding 'Did your mother never teach you'.

It's down to both parents to teach manners and respect, not just the mother.

Ah OP I am in total agreement with your first post.
Yes, the sense of keeping oneself in check seems to have vanished. No respect for the way you present yourself in public and at home which, to my mind, it shows disrespect for all other people. I don't know why this has happened.
I guess it starts at home but also the community. Perhaps lack of religion too, although I am not religious myself, there is something in a wider community that would guide individuals towards a certain acceptable behaviour.
Although I would say certain things are for the best. For example, not that long ago, being divorced or a single mother would have been seen as shameful for women . Which is so, so wrong.
But it wouldn't hurt for some feeling of embarrassment for people who are loud in public or disregard norms of politeness. Spitting, coughing loudly, making loud noises, burping, dirty hair, unkempt appearance, littering, driving like an idiot, pushing in in front of queues, aggressiveness, lying etc etc. I can't stand these sorts of things.

Yup! A man let his off lead dog wonder down my drive and into my front garden yesterday where the dog proceeded to take a dump in the middle of my lawn, but it's alright apparently as he cleaned it up and I was in the wrong for questioning him as to 'what the hell he thought he was playing at' apparently

I think if they did, then the "system" wouldn't have changed?

We all know this. That was just someone being contrary.

This.

Really? Do you think that everyone should be able to act exactly as they like, regardless of how abhorrent the behaviour maybe be and feel no sense of shame? Some people should be ashamed of themselves. Your statement is so bizzare. Please elaborate ....

the shoe thing is interesting. When I was a child and dinosaurs roamed the streets, my Dad used to polish our shoes on a sunday night....but our shoes needed polishing because that was the kind of leather that was around then. In summer when we wore plimsoles to school, then he didn't clean them. I have got leather shoes but they are made from treated leather and don't ever need polishing. The most i do is wipe mud off with a wet cloth or brush the suede ones. If you have shoes by Loake or somebody and they are made from traditional leather then yes, you may still need to polish them, but not otherwise.

I agree. There isn't really a "society" anymore to set social standards.

I agree with you OP. I'm a bit tired of the cult of victimhood and people making excuses. I have no interest in stupid rules about fish knives or something but basic courtesy and consideration to other humans should be a given. Life in Britain has declined across my lifespan in many ways but a lack of stoicism and courtesy hasn't helped.

I think so.

Like most things took off on social media the concept of 'shaming' veered off into a silly direction with people feeling they'd been 'shamed' when nothing of the sort had happened and it was just a difference of opinion or someone giving unwanted advice.

And there has been a huge increase in individualism, entitlement and people's sense of 'rights' which was an issue before covid which then exploded.

@godmum56

When I was little, and dinosaurs did not roam the street, I wore jesus sandals to school in summer, which my dad cleaned every Sunday night.

I did indeed polish my DGC's shoes - when the black liquid polish, applied with sponge applicator, dries, the finish looks dull/matte. When it's dried, I then rub them with a soft, dry cloth and they look shiny - not as good as my father's finish, but shiny. It covers the grey scuffed parts really well and they look almost like new again.

None of my grandchildren wear trainers to school. They won't be able to in High School either because none of the HS around here allows anything that resembles trainers to be worn.

I voted, YABU, because shame simply doesn't work and people who are already mindful of others bare the brunt of shame-based behavioral enforcement and feel inadequate that they can't do more. While the people who don't give a shit about others, will not care about how much shame other people try to lob at them.

We weren't allowed Jesus boots in primary school. Shoes had to have a closed toe. My leather shoes that don't need cleaning are not all trainers. Plimsoles were allowed in school because it was a poor area and for some families, it was plimsoles or bare feet. Trainers didn't exist.

On the other hand, it’s people making you feel that you should have shame that causes huge personal problems.

You can’t control either to whom or why the shame is demanded, or what the shamed persons reaction is.

I’ve been shamed by people who just wanted to make me feel shit for being me- the way I looked, spoke, whatever.

I’ve had people shame me for wanting my events (wedding holidays birthday parties etc) the way I want them (attention seeking, flashy, wasteful)

I’ve grown to with so much shame (and- I am very sensitive to it) I’ve been too scared to do many things I want to do due to the shame of failing.

the posters neighbour you refer to might’ve had a legitimate complaint about her music noise.
But her mum might also have been terrified of upsetting the neighbours, or the neighbours might’ve been controlling and unreasonable.

life isn’t as simple as “shame people into good behaviour”. It’s a cruel gamble with real consequences for normal, well meaning people.