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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

zendeveloper · 22/04/2025 12:01

I can't perceive the late pope in a positive light at all given his stance on Ukraine, no matter what his other declarations of love and peace were. Where do traitors go in Catholicism, to hell or purgatory? I hope he's in a good company in any case.

softlyfallsthesnow · 22/04/2025 12:10

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 11:31

Communion with the pre-consecrated is the norm in many places now (including weekday masses in parishes in Ireland) - theoretically you would indeed only need one priest, but there will always be more than that, some in religious communities.

I prefer keeping ordination for priests who are male, and celibate, and in a minority, and handing over the running and administration of the church to lay people. Which in some cases would just mean giving official recognition to what is already happening.

The CofE gives us a glimpse of what can happen if you retain clericalism with added women clerics. Not a great example.

Are you familiar with the workings of the CofE, and women priests, in practice? I'm wondering why you would say that so confidently.

ToWhitToWhoo · 22/04/2025 12:20

Simonjt · 21/04/2025 22:12

He is part of a party that dislikes people of colour and treats anything associated with non-white people as suspicious. I think its fairly obvious why a republican married to an Asian woman who is also a Hindu picked catholicism.

Wouldn't he then choose one of the white-dominated evangelical churches? Many Catholics in the USA are Hispanic; I don't think Catholicism as such is strictly associated with being white. I wonder if it might have been more a matter of Trump choosing a Catholic running mate so that Catholic voters might be less likely to be put off by the white-evangelical Republican contingent,

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 12:55

softlyfallsthesnow · 22/04/2025 12:10

Are you familiar with the workings of the CofE, and women priests, in practice? I'm wondering why you would say that so confidently.

Just observing that the CofE has managed to be mired in scandal just as much as the Catholic church in Ireland in the 1970s-90s, and that having women clergy has not prevented that.

softlyfallsthesnow · 22/04/2025 13:25

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 12:55

Just observing that the CofE has managed to be mired in scandal just as much as the Catholic church in Ireland in the 1970s-90s, and that having women clergy has not prevented that.

I don't think women clergy were ordained to prevent that, were they? More like recognising a half of humanity that had been excluded actually had much to offer. Exclusively male clergy doesn't make sense to me, especially as they were the ones at the heart of any scandals, most of which (that we know about, admittedly) were before women could be ordained.
There's pretty robust safeguarding in both denominations now (in the UK at least) which is positive.

ByGraceAlone · 22/04/2025 13:51

The Catholic church desperately needs change. The chasm between what the average Joe at Sunday Mass believes and practices, and what the hierarchy decrees, is vast. And that cannot be sustainable for much longer?

There is a revival happening in the Catholic church and it's people seeking tradition, clarity and deep spirituality and mysticism.
The Latin masses and high masses are full of young people.

The Catholic church is also strong in Africa where the teaching is very traditional, conservative and mystical.

It seems to me that the people who say the Catholic church needs to adopt progressive views are mostly people who are either not Catholic or lapsed catholics i.e. people who hold those progressive views themselves but aren't going to be going to mass anyway.

Most of the people actually joining returning and committing to the church are not doing so looking for the church to have the current secular views.
They are looking for something the current culture doesn't offer.

There are some deluded posts on here that obviously know little about Catholicism. Even a 'liberal' pope is not going to change teaching on ordination of women, homosexuality, divorce or abortion.

If you want a church which has basically adopted secular progressive views join the CofE.
There you will find a dying institution.

Uricon2 · 22/04/2025 15:02

There are some deluded posts on here that obviously know little about Catholicism. Even a 'liberal' pope is not going to change teaching on ordination of women, homosexuality, divorce or abortion.

Well, while the official teaching of the RC on contraception hasn't changed since Humanae Vitae in 1968, all evidence points to the fact that many, many Catholics (the studies I've read say a majority) are using artificial methods of birth control and not just in the West.

People may well be looking for something the current culture doesn't offer., but there will be limits to the control they accept, revival or no.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/04/2025 15:29

Catholics from around the world have been commenting positively about Pope Francis progressive stance. My daily mass going mother will be in Rome for the funeral. She, too, hopes the next Pope continues Francis's work.

It's not about adopting secular views, it's about following Christ.

Conversationkiller654 · 22/04/2025 16:12

ByGraceAlone · 22/04/2025 13:51

The Catholic church desperately needs change. The chasm between what the average Joe at Sunday Mass believes and practices, and what the hierarchy decrees, is vast. And that cannot be sustainable for much longer?

There is a revival happening in the Catholic church and it's people seeking tradition, clarity and deep spirituality and mysticism.
The Latin masses and high masses are full of young people.

The Catholic church is also strong in Africa where the teaching is very traditional, conservative and mystical.

It seems to me that the people who say the Catholic church needs to adopt progressive views are mostly people who are either not Catholic or lapsed catholics i.e. people who hold those progressive views themselves but aren't going to be going to mass anyway.

Most of the people actually joining returning and committing to the church are not doing so looking for the church to have the current secular views.
They are looking for something the current culture doesn't offer.

There are some deluded posts on here that obviously know little about Catholicism. Even a 'liberal' pope is not going to change teaching on ordination of women, homosexuality, divorce or abortion.

If you want a church which has basically adopted secular progressive views join the CofE.
There you will find a dying institution.

I think you’ll find that young people the world over are seeking clarity, because as stated down thread, the world is a muddy, contradictory, and confusing place.

Extreme views, whether they reside in religion, or politics, provide an attractive, easy answer, because “sinners”, ie those who do not live by the rules, are conveniently “othered” and that is comforting and simple, because we can judge and blame them for the fall of a country or a religion, rather than confront, examine and question our own behaviours and consciences.

I find it sad how traditional Catholics always chose to focus on homosexuality and divorce (which incidentally is the only context in which they seem able to be able to mention women in these discussions) when far more important than who is sleeping with whom, is preserving the dignity and worth of every individual, alongside issues such as poverty, war, injustice, alienation and isolation.

Let’s get to the nub of it; Jesus in the Gospels barely mentioned sexual morality. But he embraced a prostitute, healed the sick, ministered to the poor and homeless, and welcomed sinners.

If the church is only about setting standards and rules which the majority of people and members of congregations fail to live up to, then the majority will lack the sense of belonging, support and solidarity which they seek , and moreover deserve, if you believe God to be loving and forgiving that is!

The two options are, that the church can go down all guns blazing, essentially gathering itself around a small blocus of religious extremists, leaving the mass of congregations feeling excluded, guilty, and branded sinners.

Or the shepherds can find a way back towards their flocks, making them feel welcome and included, recognising that rules needs to be flexible and nuanced and applied with humanity and love. And church leaders, instead of imposing rules upon their parishioners, live alongside them, and suffer with them.

When did the Catholic Church become an institution that turned away those who fail and sin? Is that not the complete opposite of the Christian message? You are right, I want no part of that brand of Catholicism thank you. One of my main motivations for attending mass is the church’s ongoing championing of social justice.

Btw, I say this as someone who has been married for thirty years, who attends Mass weekly and on holy days of obligation and who regularly goes to confession and who attends a Latin Mass once a month and adores the sung Latin Mass . So your rather accusatory assumption and narrow definitions about those who hold progressive views within the church may not be entirely accurate! And even if they were accurate, I find it astonishing that you would be content with the alienation of the silent majority.

Perhaps we would all be wise to follow Pope Francis’s example and take the views of ordinary parishioners in to account? And examine why they are leaving so many pews empty on a Sunday? Could it be, like many of my former fellow parishioners, that they found the sexual abuse of children by priests, and the subsequent cover ups of these evils, too much to bear? And found that the credibility of the church had been forever undermined by these appalling crimes?

I find it surprising that you do not consider the Catholic Church to be a dying institution already? When its leaders have rejected homosexuals and divorcees and branded their actions sinful, while at the very same time protecting child abusers within their ranks, knowingly moved them to other parishes, and effectively said, “carry on in a different place where you are not known”. The sexual abuse crisis is far from over or solved btw. (And in my view will not be until women gain equal recognition and power within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.) Tragically we anticipate appallingly sad news emerging from South American countries, among other examples.

Perhaps the hierarchy of the church would be wise to observe the empty seats at Sunday Mass and take on board their meaning?

The Catholic Church may be thriving in countries where homosexuality is unrecognised and rarely mentioned, and where women have traditionally taken on subservient roles, but I’m afraid I fail to see that as progress, even when deep spirituality is present. As mentioned below, I also fail to understand why progressive views and deep spirituality are mutually exclusive?

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 16:45

“sinners”, ie those who do not live by the rules, are conveniently “othered”

No, it is a core teaching of the church that all of us (including the Pope) are sinners. Sinners are not 'other' they are every single one of us. We all live with that and strive to move towards the good.

Conversationkiller654 · 22/04/2025 16:48

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 16:45

“sinners”, ie those who do not live by the rules, are conveniently “othered”

No, it is a core teaching of the church that all of us (including the Pope) are sinners. Sinners are not 'other' they are every single one of us. We all live with that and strive to move towards the good.

You won’t find me disagreeing with that DeanElderberry

That’s my point in a nutshell. We are all sinners! And therefore the Catholic Church should embrace, welcome and love their failing members. Not judge and exclude them. How you move towards the good is important.

deeahgwitch · 22/04/2025 16:51

He seemed like a very nice man.
May he rest in peace.
I’d hate to have an open coffin and people parading past it.

Over40Overdating · 22/04/2025 17:13

@Conversationkiller654 If I could like your post 100 times over I would.

The church is dying where people are saying enough to the greed and abuse and shame that has taken over from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. And the same will happen in the countries where it is currently building it’s base, as people come to the same conclusions.

The delusion is thinking that it is us who needs to meet the church where it is, and be grateful, rather than the other way round. There are more sinners in the hierarchy of the CC than out of it.

I come from an extremely religious background and I know people who live and breathe the teachings of Jesus, including some who were ordained but have left the ministry, and none are lapsed in their faith in God, only in those who seek to keep the Catholic Church as a dictatorial, rigid organisation who place dogma over people.

LlynTegid · 22/04/2025 17:57

When Pope Francis was in hospital a few weeks ago and it seemed he might not live more than a few days more, I recall a conversation where one comment was 'he will be a hard act to follow'. In that I agree.

My view on who the next Pope should be is someone with a background in campaigning for social justice, and living a simple life alongside that. To me unless I am mistaken that probably means a Cardinal from a developing country.

tommyhoundmum · 22/04/2025 18:26

RhaenysRocks · 21/04/2025 09:02

He looked terrible on the balcony..it must have been a huge effort for him to make that appearance. I would imagine Conclave will start once they've gathered all the cardinals..it's not instant.

Surely not until after the funeral

BeaRightThere · 22/04/2025 18:30

shortsharp · 21/04/2025 23:08

I’ve never heard that prayer before but I must say it’s beautiful. I just looked it up and I think it’s Church of England. Thank you for sharing it.

It’s a sad day for catholics. May he rest in peace. I dropped into my local chapel tonight to say a prayer for the repose of his soul. There was a quiet peacefulness and a few people deep in prayer at the shrine that had been set up for him.

It's Catholic as far as I'm aware. Said at every Catholic funeral I've ever been to here in Ireland.

Cazz1953 · 22/04/2025 18:38

Poor soul. He looked and sounded so frail on Sunday.

DeanElderberry · 22/04/2025 18:42

The Conclave can't start fewer than 15 days after the death or more than 20 days after.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 22/04/2025 19:03

Honestly, leave well alone. As someone who lived in Spain a few years ago, there are many practicing Catholics who attend Mass and perform all the rituals and ceremonies and fiestas but take contraception, for example, or even have abortions and get divorced. Otherwise Spain and Italy wouldn't have the lowest birth rates in Europe. Catholicism is based on hypocrisy. Most of the rhetoric about the so called Progressive Pope is nonsense. Does the Catholic Church officially endorse homosexuality, divorce, same sex marriage, female priests, abortion and contraception? No and not likely to. Most of Papa Francisco's stunts of washing the refugee feet etc were pretty performative.

GoldenGail · 22/04/2025 19:24

StepawayfromtheLindors · 21/04/2025 09:04

Poor man, being forced to go out and about so publicly when he was hours from dying.

He wasn’t forced. Apparently he defied his doctors to do it x

Rhaenys · 22/04/2025 19:51

YourAmplePlumPoster · 22/04/2025 19:03

Honestly, leave well alone. As someone who lived in Spain a few years ago, there are many practicing Catholics who attend Mass and perform all the rituals and ceremonies and fiestas but take contraception, for example, or even have abortions and get divorced. Otherwise Spain and Italy wouldn't have the lowest birth rates in Europe. Catholicism is based on hypocrisy. Most of the rhetoric about the so called Progressive Pope is nonsense. Does the Catholic Church officially endorse homosexuality, divorce, same sex marriage, female priests, abortion and contraception? No and not likely to. Most of Papa Francisco's stunts of washing the refugee feet etc were pretty performative.

He’s only considered progressive because the bar was already in hell.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 22/04/2025 20:42

If you want a secular organisation as the C of E seems to be these days, why bother calling it a religion? May as well just join a chess or book club. The last time I attended a C of E Mass at the behest of a friend, many years ago, it seemed to be more like a Lib Dem political party meeting. Becoming more secular doesn't seem to be boosting the C of E Church numbers so why would that work for the Catholic Church? Not that i care, as I'm not religious.

thequeenoftarts · 22/04/2025 22:34

Not a fan of any religion here but he actually seemed like a kind and decent human being. Good on him for hearing people and not being close minded, even his funeral arrangements show the modest man he was. Not much pomp and flair to his casket, his tomb stone or his burial place. I think I might have had time for him if we had met up.
I am so glad his end was quick and hopefully he was unaware of any pain and went peacefully without people trying to save him.

Rest in peace Pope Francis

softlyfallsthesnow · 22/04/2025 23:11

YourAmplePlumPoster · 22/04/2025 20:42

If you want a secular organisation as the C of E seems to be these days, why bother calling it a religion? May as well just join a chess or book club. The last time I attended a C of E Mass at the behest of a friend, many years ago, it seemed to be more like a Lib Dem political party meeting. Becoming more secular doesn't seem to be boosting the C of E Church numbers so why would that work for the Catholic Church? Not that i care, as I'm not religious.

You went to one CofE service many years ago, very reluctantly. I took my son to an Oasis gig in similar vein. I was definitely there but don't feel qualified to make sweeping statements about Noel and Liam's artistic and musical intentions. Not my kind of music.
Not sure you know much about the CofE.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/04/2025 23:51

YourAmplePlumPoster · 22/04/2025 20:42

If you want a secular organisation as the C of E seems to be these days, why bother calling it a religion? May as well just join a chess or book club. The last time I attended a C of E Mass at the behest of a friend, many years ago, it seemed to be more like a Lib Dem political party meeting. Becoming more secular doesn't seem to be boosting the C of E Church numbers so why would that work for the Catholic Church? Not that i care, as I'm not religious.

Not that i care, as I'm not religious.

You don't say.😆