Why were trans threads hidden?

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Since the ruling that biological sex matters I've been reading more and more. Every day.

To my shame, I didn't really follow the issue or consider it before. The more I read, the more horrified I am at how women who've been campaigning have been treated by society, by TRA activists, by other women and even on mumsnet hidden in a corner in sex and feminism.

JK Rowling having rape and death threats for sharing her concerns. Women being cancelled. This is an every women and every girl issue.

With the rise in toxic masculinity and misogyny in schools and society we all need to talk about this more.

Well done to those that did the talking and campaigning for the safety of all women.

Oh so we are back to tone-policing women again are we? Damn those 'angry women' who should always speak in a soft meet voice and never be assertive or uppity.

I doubt you'd go to the 'Black mumsnetters' (yes it exists on here) section and tone-police black people for fighting for their rights.

MN is one of the few platforms that allow women to discuss this issue openly and without fear of being cancelled. For so long the #nodebate TRAs ran the show and nearly brought MN down in the process. They don't want a debate because they know that their arguments just don't stand up to scrutiny and the more the issue is illuminated the more people realise that this isn't just about women being unkind to trans people. It is about a inherently vulnerable group fighting for their own rights There are so many scenarios where gender ideology causes problems but I still see on Social Media that lots of women think that it's all about women not wanting to share toilets.

None of them are 'misogynistic' insults. They are feminist terms women use when discussing womens rights. Sorry if the truth of those terms hurts you.

Kind of ironic that you’re accusing someone of hatred given the tone of your posts on this thread. You’re coming across like you hate anyone who doesn’t think what you think.

Trans women are not a threat to....your maternity care/rights or your ability to get a smear test so why are you bleating on about them?

They are if we are not allowed to ask for a female only doctor, as has been the case.

Second tone-policing post in this thread. The 'women must be quiet and speak with a soft voice, never get angry, be uppity or assertive or else it's hatred' posters out in force.

It’s a very hostile place and I’ve hidden it as well. I want no part in it

But that is the point, women only spaces were being accesses by men.

That's fine, you do you.

I've found it and want to read it.

Thank goodness. Reminds me of when people posted about Brexit in AIBU but used a thread title that made you think it was a genuine post. Highly annoying.

They may however stop you getting that board position!

That’s exactly why there are topics! Those who want to read a certain topic can and those who don’t can hide the topic. I don’t want to read about the Royals, so I can hide the topic. After a pregnancy loss, I have hidden conception and pregnancy topics.

Otherwise what is the point of having topics? You might as well get everyone to post on AIBU. I believe in biological sex, but I find that a lot of the posts discussing this descend into talk of sexual assault. There are many that want to avoid this so hide the topic.

There is no need to silence people, just let people post of the appropriate board and they everyone can decide whether to read or hide the topic.

Does anyone actually read multiple threads on the same subject each with hundreds and hundreds of comments?

Do people really have the time?

The issue is in my view more than female spaces, the ideology that you can change from male to female or female to male has had a negative impact on many young people. I am choosing my words carefully as am aware that certain words lead to posts being removed. Being able to question this ideology does not mean someone is phobic or discriminatory it is a concern for young and vulnerable individuals. It is not possible to be anything you want male and female are a given and the SC ruling makes clear what that biology takes precedent over all else.

Well I'm with a pp in that trans threads are "dull as fuck"...... Because I am bored sick of gender stereotyping. Both the right wing variant and the faux progressive gender ideology variant. It's all so horribly backwards and navel gazing and does absolutely nothing to trouble the patriarchal, capitalist status quo.

I wish I were privileged enough to say that this insidious men's rights movement didn't affect me or my children.

The fact that there are "hundreds and hundreds of comments" shows how important this issue is to women.

oh dear. The same way you have time to read multiple threads about anything on MN?

I am sure you thought this was a great post.

If you cannot read threads that fall into the theme AIBU then I suggest you also hide and avoid AIBU.

The posts on this thread about demanding AIBU is curated to suit the poster are the stuff AIBU is made of! It is a generalised topic thread asking AIBU about anything.

If you have serious issues with your impulse control in clicking or replying in threads you are not interested in, it is not for MNHQ to curate a board to suit your personal preferences. But this thread show just how many people think that MNHQ should indeed cater to them in this way.

Womens Sex Based rights?
Thats so old fashioned its peoples rights.

What happened if the SC said that the meaning of woman ment that a female can remove herself from sex based law or other people can decide she is not covered?

Do you want to cast a vote on the which law is valid in the Ireland and the UK

(Laws are listed below.)

Being in Ireland should the doctor ask all females (and males) if they have a GRC before providing pregnancy related healthcare?
Eg for a female with a possible implanted embryo and wanting an emergency contraceptive or an abortion per the 2018 act and has a GRC per the 2015 act and risking 14 years in prison.

And fyi women and men have no right to abortions in Ireland its up to the government of the day to pass laws for access.
So do men have access rights in the UK?

Can the birthing body male be charged with an unlawful abortion under the law in Ireland?
How about in the UK?

Would this be a concern in the UK hospital system as they ask everybody (males too) if they could be pregnant so why not if they have a GRC before deciding if running tests has a sex based issue?

And if a baby is born in Ireland to an unmarried/civil partnership female with a GRC who is not living with the Sperm Producer has the baby got a mother?

The UK courts said it has a mother.
The Irish law say it can have a father once the Sperm Producer produces a DNA test in court but the Irish Birthing Body has no established rights.

And fyi in 2015 Ireland voted to break parental righs to their children.

And @SolielMoonSky was asked to vote to remove the rights sections for women and mothers

So what about the peskie Birthing Bodys rights while growing the baby?
well the UK SC said sex = female = woman for the EA and an employer or other party would have to argue that that if applied to other pregnancy related laws that the word woman did not hold true with a GRC and anyway how could they tell if the individual was a "woman" or a "man"
Irish law is the gender grounds

The nice doctor with a penis in NHS Fife decided he has a right to access both cervix (neck and female only organ) if a woman asked for a woman doctor and the NHS helpfully decided that the smear test was for people with a cervix.

And why cant a male get the new "smear" test too?

Funny as fuck the Irish system opted for people with a cervix too.

It may be dull as fuck but give us a wording to describe women sorry people with a cervix in this bit of smear test legislation :

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/act/31/section/2/enacted/en/html

Because the new rights based fashion is to remove the word woman because women are people too.
And replace the word woman with "people" and sex based function words eg period products are for bleeders sorry people who menstruate not women.

But nice wording to reduce women to bleating farm animals

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/enacted/en/print
Effect of gender recognition certificate generally
18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/31/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2
Definitions
2. In this Act—

“foetus”, in relation to a pregnancy, means an embryo or a foetus during the period of time commencing after implantation in the uterus of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the foetus from the body of the woman;

“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;

“woman” means a female person of any age.

Offences
23. (1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.

(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

(6) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall operate to prevent or restrict access to services lawfully carried out in a place outside the State.

And you can check the words used in the UK act.

And the Irish still have no right to abortion which may suprise some Repeal the 8thers.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article40

3 1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

2° The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.

3° Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy.

And someone did a cut and paste and edit with the GRA

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9
General

(1)Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

(2)Subsection (1) does not affect things done, or events occurring, before the certificate is issued; but it does operate for the interpretation of enactments passed, and instruments and other documents made, before the certificate is issued (as well as those passed or made afterwards).

(3)Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.

Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person
the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes
the preferred gender
so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man,
and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

But not here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/12
12 Parenthood

The fact that a person’s gender has become the acquired gender under this Act does not affect the status of the person as the father or mother of a child.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/section/19/enacted/en/html#sec19
Parenthood

19. The fact that a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person shall not affect the status of the person as the father or mother of a child born prior to the date of the issue of the certificate.

Ireland did not need to say sex based roles remain sex based which were mainly mens righs anyway

16 Peerages etc.

The fact that a person’s gender has become the acquired gender under this Act—

(a)does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and

(b)does not affect the devolution of any property limited (expressly or not) by a will or other instrument to devolve (as nearly as the law permits) along with any peerage or dignity or title of honour unless an intention that it should do so is expressed in the will or other instrument.

And is it sex or living in a gender when it comes to sex based reproduction roles?

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/3/enacted/en/html#sec3
(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”),

And the words which were bad for women but ignored men..

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article41

THE FAMILY
ARTICLE 41
2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

And the citizens voted to keep the provision :

https://www.referendum.ie/archive/referendum-on-the-fortieth-amendment-of-the-constitution-care-bill-2023/
You are being asked, in this referendum, if you agree with the proposal –
to delete the following section from Article 41 of the Constitution:

“2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”

and
to insert the following Article after Article 42A of the Constitution:

“Care
Article 42B
The State recognises that the provision of care, by members of a family to one another by reason of the bonds that exist among them, gives to Society a support without which the common good cannot be achieved, and shall strive to support such provision.”

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article42

CHILDREN

ARTICLE 42A
1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.

2 1° In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

2° Provision shall be made by law for the adoption of any child where the parents have failed for such a period of time as may be prescribed by law in their duty towards the child and where the best interests of the child so require.

3 Provision shall be made by law for the voluntary placement for adoption and the adoption of any child.

4 1° Provision shall be made by law that in the resolution of all proceedings—

i brought by the State, as guardian of the common good, for the purpose of preventing the safety and welfare of any child from being prejudicially affected, or

ii concerning the adoption, guardianship or custody of, or access to, any child,

the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.

2° Provision shall be made by law for securing, as far as practicable, that in all proceedings referred to in subsection 1° of this section in respect of any child who is capable of forming his or her own views, the views of the child shall be ascertained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child.

Can you imagine how it would go down if a UK woman went on an Irish board discussing Irish laws and saying 'don't know why you are discussing this so much, it doesn't affect me.'

Like a sack of shite.

It’s not that I don’t care about the issues, or even that I disagree, it’s the way that the posts all turn that I can’t be bothered with. I do feel uncomfortable when refuse to use a trans person’s pronouns, I think that’s unnecessary for people to say they’re not anti-trans but also won’t respect a person’s chosen pronouns.

I don’t want to post on those threads, because I’ve seen people trying to explain themselves and their whole point being missed because they’ve used the term ‘cis’ to describe a woman and suddenly no one wants to discuss their post and instead just wants to pile on and tell the poster that the woman doesn’t exist because the word cis isn’t real etc or being told “you meant HE”. Real conversations and learning opportunities get buried so that people can argue about the same stuff, and it’s off putting. I also don’t want to post on those threads as it would give me anxiety, I’m already uncomfortable typing my thoughts out now as I don’t know how I’ll cope with any attacks in response. I can hold a debate, but it’s the nastiness that makes me anxious. I see people asking questions that could help them learn, but people just want to reply with “that’s not the gotcha you think it is” or to just berate them. Already in this thread, it’s been suggested that some people are just thick for thinking differently.

Sometimes I read a really good post by a person, that is eloquently written and argues the case for women’s rights in a way that makes sense without villainising trans women, but then the posts around it may ruin it and turn hostile. It reminds me a bit of the Just Stop Oil people. I care about the planet; I think it’s an important cause, but if you can’t get people inside with your methods then they’re automatically against your cause. It’s the same for JK Rowling, I can’t read what she’s saying because I simply don’t like her. I know people will come back with her charity work and great causes, but any time I’ve looked at her Twitter feed she just seems to be arguing and trolling for fun and I can’t help but see her as a smug billionaire and can’t relate to her. I also get bored of seeing thread about celebs turning into a hate fest for celebs who support trans people.

I actually can’t remember what happened about Imane K, but I remember at the time the talk of it being a genetic thing rather than her being trans, and I felt sorry for her for people calling her a man. If she had been brought up as a woman all her life and then found out she wasn’t, then I think that’s different from being trans. I’d still agree she shouldn’t be in the sport, but I don’t think people should have expected her to suddenly identify as a man and for people to start using male pronouns for her. I don’t actually know how all that ended now, and if she did turn out to be trans or not, and I don’t know the cases of the others mentioned in the post I’m replying to.

Anyways, I’ve raised my head and said what I’ve thought, and I’ll probably hide this thread now. Not sure if it will still show in the threads I’m on.

I'm delighted to see all the threads about the SC judgement .

The reason (I think) that there is a proliferation of threads on the subject is that it feels like a dam has burst, and women NOW feel safe enough to express things in the open. It's hard to believe that our views were censored to such an extent, but that is receding fast now.

Well done the FWS. And as for those trans who are saying "but our views were not sought in this judgment", well it wouldn't have reached the SC if the ScotGov hadn't supported you all the way and denied women a voice in the first place.

Oh there we go, just before I bow out. The exact type of post that I’m on about.

So is your issue that you believe that people should use language that other’s request that they use for them personally and you don’t understand why others won’t do what you have chosen to do?

Do you understand what is referred to when people say that language has been used as a tool to leverage male people’s demands within society?