M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

Whaaaat?

1. If a shop is providing changing facilities it is legally obliged to provide equal access to both sexes. If one sex cannot avail due to privacy concerns then it possibly amounts to indirect discrimination.
2. Wtf do you mean here? A shop must follow the same definition as the equality act. It cannot make up stuff
3. See point 1..it can still amount to indirect discrimination against females if females are unable to use as there are big gaps in the cubicles or moving curtains.

Which is completely different to “they can allow trans women into the women’s if they want to”, as you previously said.

You don't even understand the meaning of 'legal advice'. And the further information in your subsequent post about shops and businesses being essentially able to ignore the law and make up their own rules is total nonsense.

Lawyer my arse 🤣

What a load of utter tosh! While everyone is entitled to an opinion here, reading this as a legal professional, I have no idea whether to laugh or cry.

The SC definition solely applies to these terms in the context of the relevant legislation. This has very little impact on who shops allow into their changing rooms. The main issue would be if they allowed TW into the female changing but didn’t allow TM into male changing - that would breach EA. Otherwise, allowing TW into female changing is still entirely lawful. You may hate that, love it or not care a hoot, but that is the law of England and Wales.

With the greatest respect, lawyers have not been covering themselves with glory on their understanding and application of these issues over the last 15 years. So we will take even what you say with a pinch of salt and wait to see what the guidance is from EHRC

Hate to spoil the surprise but who do you think is preparing the EHRC guidance…

Males, whether calling themselves trans women or not, can be excluded from spaces advertised as being specifically for women, now that “women” has actually been clarified as meaning biological women.

Well not a lawyer but that is not my understanding.

the definition of female as per the equality act is biological female. Any space that is designated a single sex space has to only take those with the right biology. So if a store says female changing rooms it must only take biological females (inc trans men) and VV.

a store is not obligated to provide single sex spaces. It can provide mixed sex changing rooms or unisex cubicles.

The reason shops have let men identify into women's spaces is 'the Equality Act' says they can.

No, it doesn't.

If it's a women's space it's single sex. For a proportionate, legitimate reason of privacy, dignity and decency. If any men are using it then it is a mixed sex space and will have to be labelled as such.

Aside from the debate if a shop has to exclude male people or not, what really astounds me every single time the sheer disrespect the trans community have for women. A ruling made clear that female spaces do not include male people and a large group of transwomen go 'we'll see about that' and a large group of transmen go 'we'll go in an sabotage everything as much as we can'

Not making themselves look like nice people with this behaviour.

Do clothing shops even label changing rooms? I don’t know if I recall that they do. They usually just have a changing facility in the area where the women’s clothes are and another nearer the men’s so it’s ‘obvious’ which is which.

See above. I don’t even think most are outrightly labelled.

But what's the answer?

Gay cake, if it's the NI gay cake, ended with the decision that a private business owner cannot be forced to carry out an act with which his conscience disagrees - this is the right to freedom of conscience (protected by EA 2010) i.e. it is not discrimination if a Jewish baker won't bake you an a cake for Hitler's birthday (which is today, apparently) if you wanted 'Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler' written on it at the baker's.
But yes, private businesses are not allowed to discriminate on grounds of sex or gender reassignment etc. If they advertise sex segregated changing rooms then they would be discriminating against women if they then let trans women use those changing rooms, since 'sex segregated' means segregated by biological sex, not gender. So M and S could face sex discrimination cases if they continue to allow TiMs into spaces they designate as single sex (but they will probably say their changing rooms are unisex, of course, like Primark).

What is this?

A bunch of fox news links for ME to go through? 🙄
I was after the one you referenced
look at the school in the states where girls were held captive in locked cubicles and raped by a boy who claimed he was trans

Tbf, I did make an effort to find it but got as far as this, which just happens to be the first on your list 🤷‍♀️
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/05/magazine/loudoun-county-bathroom-sexual-assault.html#

My point is that they don’t use signs anyway. AND there will have to be some strict policy of what signs (if any) actually say. ‘Women’s’ may mean biological women only. But what if they are labelled ‘Ladies’ or ‘Girls’ or what if it’s just the figure in a dress symbol or the circle and cross gender pictogram? Is ‘implied’ still going to be protected lawfully?

I don’t have that answer and I don’t think anyone does yet before it all starts playing out in practice. But do I think most stores or consumer facilities are going to start labelling changing rooms ‘women only’? No.

But do I think most stores or consumer facilities are going to start labelling changing rooms ‘women only’?

Meaning more work for the female staff in retail as men won’t be allowed to staff those areas.

Is it really a win to increase workloads for women in retail who are already overworked?

What a reach!!
Retail is almost universally staffed by women as it is.

Coming from someone who clearly doesn’t work in retail!

Part of my duties includes fitting rooms. If men are no longer allowed to staff these areas then the women would be nearly universally stuck there whilst men did everything else. Not to mention women having to do more cleaning of toilets.

But please continue to tell me how you have more experience of retail for women.

I can't either. You are in a private cubicle.

Get a life

I appreciate this thread has probably moved on and this has probably been responded to but I know you are not dim.

The issue I have with this is that you don't get to consent on behalf of all women.

A lot of the time they are not locked cubicles. When it comes to bra shopping even if they are what if you need a different size? Do you get fully dressed to alert the person to help you with that?

It just was better the way it was before. You may not be bothered but I am. And you don't get to consent for me.

This person is female.

They have chosen to modify their body to resemble a man. The picture is pretty good but in real life it would be fairly obvious, especially if they walk or speak.

If this person feels more comfortable in the male spaces they are not a risk to the men who use them.

So this is a really rubbish argument to allow males to be in female single sex spaces.

If a space is marked female only then men do not enter. That is how it is enforced.

I have just been listening to a barrister speak on the toilets and changing rooms issue and it’s made me fairly unconvinced that consumer premises will abide by single sex spaces. They said that they can only do this if the means are ‘proportionate and justifiable’ – that’s a really difficult thing to argue in court (and no one would want to go to court anyway). It is not proportionate or justifiable to argue that women in curtained cubicles or stalls are at risk – even if you think it could happen. Unless it’s running rife in stores around the country with evidence to back it up then it’s likely the protections in discrimination to transpeople will be upheld against disproportionate practical responses.