M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

That was Northern Ireland where there was a specific law which forbids refusing a service because of the recipient's political beliefs, which I think is what led to that action being illegal?

They bakers weren't refusing a service because of someone's protected characteristics, they were objecting to a political message which is different.

Its been a long time but I think that was the substance of the case.

Why do people keep coming out with this nonsense? It worked very well in all the many years prior till gender bollocks. There is no reason why it can't work again now.

The piss taking men will be kept out, just like they were until ten years ago and gender bollocks took sway and let them all in.

See upthread my further replies. They can declare changing facilities unisex or for women or for women and transwomen. As long as there are adequate changing facilities available for all, it’s completely law abiding.

Personally I cannot see the problem with trans women (or anyone else) using a particular changing room given that cubicles are in place.

I can see there may be an issue in spaces like communal changing rooms or prisons.

However, many retailers have mixed gender changing areas. Given that private cubicles are provided, I don’t see what difference it makes whether there’s a trans woman (or a biological man for that matter) next door.

I didn’t say they should label anything ‘women’s’ My point is that they are not obliged to provide separate spaces for sexes. They can declare it all ‘unisex’ or declare spaces ‘women and transwomen’

And yet, it has been proven that any male person who takes estrogen can still retain male levels of strength. The bottom quartile of male strength still is stronger than around 90% of female people or more.

A male person who has had surgery to remove their penis is just a male person who has had surgery to remove their penis. They are not a woman and they are still male. In fact, in the language of the EA, they are still men.

'Men who want to attack women have many other ways to do so that don't involve going to all the bother of socially, medically, and/or surgically transitioning. Why on earth would they do all that if they were not genuinely trans? (By which I mean, wanting to change sex (as far as is possible) and then just live their lives in peace.)'

This is a falsehood. There is no evidence what so ever that in the UK, a male person with a transgender identity loses any of the risk of committing a sex crime compared the general male population in the UK.

It is also not just about sex offences either. There is also a very well established history of male people going to great effort to access the people they wish to victimise. Victimising female people takes on many different guises and not all of them are where the female person is the sexual target. Also please remember that it is not only adult female people using the female single sex spaces.

Would you like to see all the studies that prove that male people retain male strength advantages? I mean, I was pretty sure you have been on threads discussing it in the past.

However, if pp or any one reading wants evidence that this claim above is false, just ask. There are quite a few studies by now that all show the same thing. It is well know. I am surprised to see this misinformation being posted still.

Why do their upper arms appear so thin, then? Same size as bio women's.

my 12 year old son is lean and muscular and has skinny arms. He could overpower me in about 10 seconds.

observing the thinness of someone and making judgements when you can’t see the composition of their insides leads to incorrect assumptions.

their internal composition can be tested and it has been proved that male strength and physical advantages are retained after transition

Just because their arms appear 'so thin', does not mean that they are weaker. You seem really ill informed.

Male people have many advantages over female people. Starting with the type of muscle fibres that they have. Then there is the leverage they can achieve with their skeletal proportions and their connective tissue. Their hands retain their grip strength which is around 140%-160% that of female people's grip strength.

A thin built male is still stronger than a woman of the same size.

And have you ever considered that children use female single sex provisions? Dolatowski raped two girls in female toilets so please don't say 'it never happens' it already has.

Is that correct? I thought that facilities must now be mixed sex or single-sex. To say they are for women and transwomen would be to discriminate against men. Am I wrong on this?

M&S changing rooms are individual cubicles with lockable doors.

I haven't assumed anything. You said your daughter felt uncomfortable in woman's facilities because she has been challenged You are implying men should be allowed to be in women's spaces so that your daughter who could be perceived as male won't be questioned.

Androgynous people still have a sex and your daughter is welcome in female spaces.

That is my understanding - it would be discriminatory to allow some biological men to access the space but not others

🙄

Not every store

THIS is my style of m&s the curtains do not close completely this is why I do not try on clothing in store honestly never shop there anymore

For employers providing staff facilities, they are obliged to provide single sex spaces. Business providing for customers - no, they can largely do what they like and it’s easy to get past ‘discrimination’. They can provide two spaces and call them mixed sex, they can also claim one ‘identifies woman’ and another ‘identifies man’ to get around it. Since most changing rooms in stores consist of single cubicles anyway, it’s all arguably (by law) private, so it would be very difficult for anyone to argue a space is ‘sexed’ or that it’s ’discriminatory’.

So the ruling prevents a private company from having inclusive facilities if they want to?

Seems to have swung from one extreme to the other.

As a lawyer, I can assure you this is complete rubbish. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the judgment, I do wish every clueless individual would refrain from giving legal advice on here. It really doesn’t help anyone!

Can a shop put up a sign that says Women's Changing Room with no other wording and allow transwomen in?

After I saw the SM posts from men discussing how they like to wank on the lingerie and put it back on the pegs in the hope a woman tries it on, and wank on the floor in the hope a woman stands in it without shoes, I wouldn't set foot in those changing rooms without a hazmat suit on.

But yes, hopefully this judgement will get us back towards single sex spaces actually being single sex. Arguments that men will just do what they want to women and no one can stop them so there's no point trying aren't really acceptable arguments.

I am very much team JKR but when the doors lock and it's all very private Im not sure why you need to do this.

To answer the question, yes a shop can allow TW to enter the female changing rooms. There are a couple of reasons:

1. a shop is not legally obliged to provide single sex changing
2. the law defines “female” in a specific way. There is no obligation for a shop to follow that same definition.
3. assuming the shop also takes a similar approach to the male changing rooms, there is no discrimination, so they’re compliant with the Equality Act

Actually they could still fall foul of indirect sex discrimination if women argue that the changing facilities don't provide adequate privacy and decency from the view of men. Flimsy curtains for example. So your argument all the way through isn't entirely correct.