M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

Go in and lock the door. I believe they have a call the assistant button if they try to squeeze under or climb over.

Has it escaped your notice that trans women are men JHound?

It's absolutely flabbergasting how many people on these threads dgaf about women's rights.

You are siding with men who are there without consent. Women have been and will continue to be harmed unless businesses act to protect women.

It’s rhetorical. Sarcastic. However you want to frame it. She’s clearly not replying because you’re being aggressive and she doesn’t wish to engage with aggressive people.

that women should have rights?

Oh get you with your men's rights activism.

Slow. Hand. Clap.

Again, please quote evidence of that from my posts. I’ll be waiting.

And I am waiting for you to confirm whether you believe that women should have the right to single sex changing facilities? And whether you believe that businesses should respect that women and girls need spaces away from all men for dignity and safety where they can provide those spaces due their size?

Whether you think girls should have the right to single sex toilets in schools?

Men free, @JHound
Women will not have toilets which are guaranteed not to have men in them.
What’s causing you such bloody difficulty?

And men won’t have toilets which won’t be guaranteed to not have women in them.

But my point is separate - if a private business wants to have inclusive toilets isn’t
that for them to decide with others deciding whether or not to frequent them?

Trans men exist.

So both men and women get the same number of spaces.

Who is siding with men? I am siding with a private business being able to determine their own changing room policy and shoppers choosing to go elsewhere.

Of course they will. Women are not routinely trying to get into the gents toilets.
They’ll remain woman free.

Only if it can be justified and proportionate, that will depend on the size of the business and the space they have.

If they can offer men's (single sex) Women's (single sex) and unisex that will meet all of the PCs under the Equality Act.

Businesses who have the space for that would be wise to offer that. Otherwise they risk litigation (along with loss of custom from women who will be aware that the business is not considering their needs).

That’s interesting (genuinely) as I knew the clarification protected businesses from prosecution if they provide single sex exclusive spaces. I did not realise it prohibited them from having inclusive spaces.

It doesn't prohibit unisex spaces. They can still be offered, but in addition to single sex ones.

Obviously many small businesses can't offer that due to size restrictions. In that situation all unisex is probably ok.

It doesn’t 🤦‍♀️
Assuming you mean unisex spaces.
Actually, what do you mean?

Does anyone know what this means for trans people like for example Jake Graf? (Pic included) Born a woman so I take it that means Jake will now have to use the female changing rooms and how will that work anyway? To look at Jake looks like a man, will shop assistants have to guess? Not trying to wind anyone up with my post, just curious?

Maybe this explanation from Akua Reindorf will help

archive.ph/72lPC

Jake should stick to unisex spaces.

The judgement actually covers some of this. It says that if a female person has changed their body with testosterone, there maybe times when they are excluded too and that organisations need to provide spaces accessible to them too.

Thanks for that link Helle, I haven't seen it before.

I think it means he should just use women’s spaces and everybody will be fine with it as he does not have a penis.

For anyone asking who is Akua Reindorf…

Akua Reindorf KC
Commissioner at Equality and Human Rights Commission

www.equalityhumanrights.com/akua-reindorf-kc

She wrote this article without signing off as being in a personal capacity. Meaning she would have to have okayed it with the EHRC before it was published.

I think we can consider her take to be in line with any guidance that will be forthcoming from the EHRC

I'm really confused by what you think inclusive means, JHound. My understanding is that you're defining it as including males who perceive themselves as female in both men's and women's spaces, should they wish to access these for their increased comfort, while excluding female victims of rape, assault and domestic abuse unable to be undressed in close proximity to males from any space? This doesn't seem to fit with my understanding of what inclusive actually means. Could you clarify?

No I mean inclusive spaces as in trans men/women in the sex space that aligns with their gender identity (as opposed to just a unisex space which many accessible spaces are). I did not realise it prohibited that.

She's female so she can if she's comfortable with it.

If she isn't then the unisex space is probably best for her.

As she's taken steps to modify her body to look like a man she can't really complain if she chooses to use the women's and is questioned.

Not necessarily.