M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

Thank you. I'm struggling to understand what's so difficult about that.

I’m not saying it is. And I’m not saying not abiding by the rules is decent or good behaviour. I’m just saying in the vast majority of cases it’s not predatory. It’s just plain old entitlement to thinking your wants or needs exist above the law.

Well this is interesting isn't it.

Men have 2 options depending on how they feel but women who need single sex spaces have none.

That's not proportionate and justifiable in a world where women matter.

You mean like Michelle Martinez (previously Miguel) who raped a 10 year old girl in a bathroom? Or Lexi-Rose Crawford who has been jailed for the SECOND time for a rape following a previous conviction of child sex abuse? Or Katie Dolakowki who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl in a toilet at Morrisons? ‘She’ also previously tried to film a 12 year old girl in the toilet at Asda. Or the teenager whose name escapes me who was harrassed and molested in a Sainsburys toilet by a transwoman? Want me to carry on?

Like fuck it doesn't happen.

I’m not saying it is. I’m just laying out the likelihood of real world practice. Only time will tell and ‘likelihood’ can be relative.

@lifeturnsonadime For example – if escalated to court, it very likely will not be ‘proportionate and justifiable’ to bar an individual transwoman from a space of curtained or doored cubicles because of the risk of them putting a camera between the partitions.

We agree then. Men should not be in female only spaces.

I think time will tell but companies will be ill advised not to offer a single sex option alongside unisex.

I can't see how it can ever be justified or proportionate not to offer a single sex space unless your business is so small it can only offer 1 mixed sex option.

Women who need single sex spaces for whatever reason should not be discriminated against in access to services.

The word woman, we now know, does not include men who identify as trans women for the purpose of provision of services which is governed by the Equality Act.

I totally and utterly disagree.

The only time it would be acceptable is if there is no other option, i.e. the building is so small there is only one unisex facility.

Transwomen are men.

if I am getting practically naked- eg getting changed into a bikini or a bra where I have to physically get my baps out, a flimsy curtain is not enough to make me feel comfortable if a biological man (however they present) was on the other side. A locked cubicle yes sure, but not a curtain that could be pulled back at any moment. I think of my 90 year old nanna and how uncomfortable and vulnerable she would feel.

But this is you coming at the issue from your own stance, or a certain group’s stance. That’s not real-world practice from other individuals coming at it from their stance. And the interpretation of the law, when held up in court, will indeed be grey and hazy, whether you agree with it or not. That may make plenty of people incensed, but it doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

If there are cubicles that lock, TBH I don’t much care who might be in the next one. Cubicles with curtains are a different matter.

I can’t help wondering whether my David Lloyd has ever had an obviously trans woman trying to use the female locker room - where most women use the communal area to change in.
Preferring my privacy, I always use one of the (too few) cubicles.

I’m not saying you should feel comfortable or think it’s justifiable. But that’s not the way ‘proportionate and justifiable’ works when applying it to an issue in court.

How does it work then? The whole issue revolves around dignity of women

I don't have the answers you're looking for but I do know that we will keep fighting. Women will not let this go.

The point is that many TW are self-id after committing crimes, including sex crimes, because they are predatory males. Many are also Autogynephiliac or fetishists. TM are unlikely to pose a threat to women - yes, I know there are cases of such, but they are very rare, unlike male violence against women.

Good on you OP, this has been an issue that has long put me off shopping in store at m&s.

I can’t tell you how it works when each escalation or prosecution will be subject its own set of circumstances. No one can. The ‘dignity of women’ will be open to interpretation in court and set up just as every law is, whether it be sex-based discrimination or not. We aren’t talking about something as clear cut as a registered sex offender lobbying to enter a women’s hospital ward – we’re talking about changing rooms in an M&S.

I’m not looking for answers!

It would be so much simpler if men just stayed out.

I think the word in psychology is schema.

No man is a woman. The highest court in the land said so.

Female people matter.

I will be highly surprised if a company the size of Marks and Spencers will ever be able to justify ignoring the needs of female customers in the light of this judgement.

@CantStopMoving

No, the whole issue is legally not about 'the dignity of women'. The rights of different groups have to be balanced under the Equality Act.

It will likely not be considered necessary and proportionate to exclude trans people from a changing area with individual cubicles.

The trans activists are rightly criticised for their extreme ideology. It is also right that those on the other side are scrutinised when they propose extreme views that are based on ideology rather than safety.

I disagree if the company is of the size to offer 3 alternatives then this is what they should do.

Otherwise male people have 2 options and female people who do not want to be in mixed sex changing rooms have none.

There is no equality in that.

I have zero problem with lockable individual cubicles . I think they are the only way to go tbh as long as there is a member of staff always on hand outside.

curtained areas are not cubicles. The curtain is flimsy and can be pulled back. I absolutely advocate for a shop to have either individual lockable cubicles with a help button inside if any issues or alternatively biological sex spaces which are either open plan or with curtained cubicles inside.

this caters for everyone

They haven't declared their changing rooms as mixed sex though, they just allow males into female changing areas and they are not allowed to do this under the equality act