to not understand why Christians think Jesus died for our sins?

[switcheroooo]

If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that mean people are not accountable for their actions? You can kill people, steal and lie but have a protected status because Jesus died for your sins.

How does this work? Why are people not responsible for their own sins? Where is the justice?

The fact that that principle had become a definition of being a decent person is in a large part due the influence of Christianity.*

Pagan Rome, for example, had different laws and morals on what was acceptable.

*I speak of the western world here. My knowledge of ancient Eastern societies is not sound enough.

It's 100% OK to say that religion doesn't have moral supremacy, or that one needs to be religious/ have a faith to be a good person or that religion is central to a 'good' society. But it would be incorrect to say that what we agree is good of a person or society was not influenced by religion.

I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't into judging people's comments. I don't think he was capable of being offended. He always turned the other cheek.

@Kardamyli2 the points just fly straight over your head, don't they?

I think what we consider to be good has definitely come from religions but it's no different to a primary school teacher saying hitting is bad and being kind is good. It's an organised way of getting groups of people to behave nicely to each other. It's basically just a recipe for overall happiness. You don't have to subscribe to a God to recognise that people are happier when we treat each other well.

It's a license to do what you like without penalty.

So Christians don’t murder anyone or disrespect anyone?

Those who are religious are no better than those of us who aren’t regardless of what you want it to be.

I'd be interested in listening to that, thanks

The penalty is felt in this life. No need to be worrying about afterlives.

sigh that is not what I said.

And for the nth time, I'm neither religious or Christian.

The idea of saving your soul through repentance is actually about trying to get back on a path that will make you happier. If you're not sorry then you have no interest in changing to make you and those around you happier.

Saying sorry on your death bed does nothing for anyone.

Religious people are often the worst. Kindness goes right out the window and being 'right' takes its place, sadly. People get very confused. We're human, I suppose. It's hard to rise above that.

I don't think it is necessarily a case of doing it without a looming threat. It depends on how you interpret it.

We have traffic lights to keep things in order. Would it be great if we did not need them? Yes. But does it help keep everything flowing mostly smoothly? Yes. In schools, we have basic rules and in society too. It is not left entirely to the individual for good reason.

Here's evidence that these ideas were prevalent pre-Jesus in ancient Egypt, ancient India, ancient Greece, ancient Persia and ancient Rome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#:~:text=Ancient-,history,-edit

Not all cultures, but many cultures.

I wouldn't say religious people are the worst. Generalisations do not help anyone.

Some of kindest best people I have ever met are religious people.

Likewise I have met amazing people with no faith.

I think the analogy of traffic lights is perfect. If we all follow them, everyone is happy. It's a bit like what Jesus was trying to teach - follow the traffic lights/ rules for a happy society. Some people will take advantage; a person who hasn't bought into the greater good. They also don't care about the repercussions or they wouldn't have done it in the first place. It's not a reason to get rid of traffic lights. There will always be people who only think of the immediate gain but they never end up happy.

Fair enough. That's why I said 'often'. Some very religious people are very happy and spread happiness wherever they tread.

I'm just saying organised religion can sometimes get in the way of being a good person. It's a 'not seeing the wood for the trees' situation.

Only if the person does not understand the true essence of faith. Most religions encourage the highest standards of behaviour.

But only because there's a punishment looming.

If religions encourage high standards of behaviour, why is there so much crime and discrimination. It can’t be all from us non believers 🤣

Religion in England (2021 census)

1. Christianity (46.3%)
2. No religion (36.7%)
3. Islam (6.7%)
4. Hinduism (1.8%)
5. Sikhism (0.9%)
6. Buddhism (0.5%)
7. Judaism (0.5%)
8. Other religions (0.6%)
9. Religion not stated (6%)

You're right. People aren't buying into the judgement day stuff anymore so they don't see the point in behaving kindly towards each other if it doesnt get them ahead financially etc. Throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Except there’s never, in the history of, say, Christianity, been the slightest indication that following a religion makes the average person behave any differently in terms of kindness, tolerance, respect for others, forbearance from violence etc.

So the living to a higher standard is a moot point?

There’s just no evidence that those professing religious beliefs behave any better than those who don’t. Quite the contrary. Iceland and Japan have some of the lowest rates of religious belief in the world, and Iceland has a murder rate of 0.30 per 100,000, while Japan has a murder rate of 0.26 per 100,000. Compare the USA with 4.96 murders per 1000,000.

Only about 1% of the US prison population declares as atheist. Over 3/4 of it identify as Christian.

One can only conclude that following a religion does not involve living out that religion’s rules about non-violence, tolerance and charity. Living in a country with less social inequality and a strong sense of social cohesion lessens crime. The concept of ‘sin’ does not, clearly.