To be devastated by what DS has done or am I over-reacting?

[Acunningruse]

Short version: DS (12yo) sent a message to a family friend’s daughter (call her Lucy) saying “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages”
😢 I saw this when doing a random check of his phone, hit the roof and have banned his phone for Easter weekend and given him extra chores.

Long version:
DS (12) has struggled hugely with the transition from a tiny primary to big secondary school. He seems to be trying to be the big I am, the cool guy.

We are involved parents concerned about social media and we check his phone regularly. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way.

Lucy text DS yesterday with pictures of their holiday and DS response was “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages “

I am hugely upset by this to think he could possibly think this is an acceptable way to speak to someone. Lucy is a very sweet very naive girl (suspect SEN) who would have been devastated to read this. Im hopeful i managed to delete the message before she saw it (no blue ticks) but I can’t be sure. I don’t know if I did the right thing by deleting I just wanted to spare her feelings.

when we confronted DS he just kept saying “I don’t want her to think I like her in that way”. We talked about men and women being friends, you can put kisses in messages and it doesn’t mean anything, but he was not as remorseful as we felt he should have been.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media. Not to mention we are going away with friends whose kids will all have their phones so DS will be an absolute nightmare sulking about not having his but we feel we have to do something.

parenting a pre-teen is all new to us (DD is 9) and every other day I feel like we are getting it wrong.

Am I over reacting? under reacting? I haven’t slept in days (sick bug in house) and I just don’t know what to do any more.

No, I’m not. 4 years ago. What’s changed?

The 12 year old girl just sent a friendly text. It wasn't inappropriate in content. I do think posters need to remember that when talking about unwanted attention etc. This is a girl who is described as naive and possibly with some SEN too.
I think both boys and girls need to learn that it's important to be careful of other people's feelings when they don't want to date them or be friends.
I think we've got to point where we think that anything short of complete bluntness/cruelty equals not having our own boundaries.
I know that 'be kind' has become a code for 'put everyone else first but yourself' but there are circumstances where being kind is a good thing and letting someone down gently is the right approach.

At 12 I am sure your friend just wanted them to be friends and enjoy each other’s company. I would have said to him that he should just ignore the kisses as you said people add kisses to the messages for friends.

I think it’s useful to think about if the roles were reversed. If it was your son putting kisses at the end of a message to Lucy and she sent a message telling him not to, that would be ok, wouldn’t it?! As others have said, he maybe wasn’t particularly tactful in the way he said it but it sounds like typical 12 year old language.

I don't think you are overreacting. From the long version it isn't just about this incident is it? It's about how he's speaking to girls in general. He trying to be 'cool' and that seems to involve him speaking to girls like shit.

I understand he wanted to put the brakes on whatever your friends are trying yo push with their daughter (and I really hate when parents do that!), but his response show cruelty and arrogance. He could have friend zoned her without being a jerk.

I don't know how you make someone be a good person, though.

Er, no. What a stupid comment.

I don't think you over reacted at all. Every day we read messages from mums whose daughter has been hurt by unkind words said to them and how it is affecting them.

The message was very hurtful as it was written. Saying to someone 'I don't like me you' is unnecessary and is inevitably going to be very upsetting to who gets it, even more so as this girl was just sending holidays photos and putting kisses is something many do to friends and family.

The issue here is that your son seems to lack empathy and I agree that this is indeed worrying. I think the punishment was absolutely appropriate. However I do agree that you need to spend more time with him to talk about empathy and kindness as a whole, not in a conflictual context but in every day matters so that he can start to better understand the impact of his words on others.

He has gotten his mates involved in bullying a girl before and he was unkind to another. I'd be concerned definitely but I'm not sure your reaction is going to help. He'll just continue on after his 'punishment' is done
Sure, he doesn't have to be her friend. And he can make sure she knows he doesn't like her 'that way' but there is no need to be mean. Just because 12 yr old Romeo is thinking about 'relationships' and dating, doesn't mean she is.
I also don't understand the assumption that your friend was pushing them together romantically. If they are family friends then surely they've played together, hung out together over the years. Suggesting they go watch a movie together or go to the shop together isn't something that screams "let's start planning the wedding"
I imagine the mother AND the daughter don't realise that they aren't actually friends anymore but there is no need for him to be an arsehole about it. Where has he learnt to be so unkind?

It was bad enough for OP to feel that she needed to have a conversation about it with Lucy's mother afterwards. It was bad enough for OP's DH to feel like he had to come up with ways to keep the kids apart. Minimise it all you like but it was clearly a lot more than you're making it out to be.

MASSIVE overreaction OP!

Good God!!

Both your reaction, and the consequences you bestowed on him, are extremely unwarranted.

Give him his phone back and apologise.

There was every chance of it being misunderstood. All he needed to add was ‘like that’ after ‘don’t like you’ and it would have been clear. As it is, it can easily be read as meaning he doesn’t like her at all as a person. OP just needs to have a chat about wording.

Certainly seems that way among some MNetters. I’d advise them to look at a lovely recent thread about teenage boys: full of examples of them helping others, supporting friends, caring for the women in their lives. It makes me sad to think that some on here would look at my little boy and see him as an enemy. Their loss though.

There are two things to note here. Firstly is that secondary school is brutal. A text with kisses from the wrong girl to a boy and vice versa could be social suicide as far as year 7s are concerned. It would get blown up and made into a huge deal. He is blunt because he is protecting himself from any peer group piss taking or bullying.

Secondly, I think you’re right to encourage empathy and kindness though op. Whatever he might experience in terms of peer group piss taking, it’s a power dynamic that works doubly hard against girls. Especially if she has SEN and is a bit naive. Boys have a lot of power (whether they know it or not) to do harm when it comes to their words and actions. Girls and women are already disadvantaged in this life and parents only have a short window to teach their sons how not to be part of the problem.

I think you’re right to be tough with him. It won’t hurt him in the long run and it’s a powerful lesson. I’d reduce the contact with Lucy though. If they’re not friends now, they never will be and it’s just causing angst.

Yes , but OP isn’t teaching her son that or how to be more tactful. By her own admission, she’s a people pleaser and sees any request (not matter how nicely worded) to stop kisses at the end of messages as rude. So instead of, she jumped the gun and punished her kid because it’s like “kicking a puppy”. What does that teach him?

That’s the real issue here and OP needs to learn herself what’s acceptable , that boundaries are ok and how to express those boundaries in order to help her son.

Why not sit down with him, have a discussion about being respectful and kind, and help him to craft a more tactful message?
Eg. ‘Hi Lucy, sorry if that sounded harsh. I don’t want you to get the wrong impression about our friendship and I didn’t feel comfortable with the kisses on your messages.’

This is exactly why 12 year olds shouldn’t have smartphones but that’s not something you can really rescind on now.

children are children, they are learning to be in the world, learning to communicate - and harshly for them they are growing up having to learn how to communicate non verbally online - without the subtleties of normal face to face interaction

This merits a simple chat - tell him that words look harsher on messages - that some people have a trait of adding kisses - etc etc -

but also ASK him if the kisses made him uncomfortable

He is a 12 year old boy he may literally think the kisses are flirting - I can imagine my son having some social understanding tht a girl sending you kisses means she is 'flirting' or whatever he views it as

He may think he needs to spell it out! he may think 'don't like you' jut means doesn't want to be a 'girl/boy' partner at age 12

Please can we as adults not leap to thinking of growing boys as child murderers !

this is actually what toxic culture is - blaming young boys for totally normal childlike bheaviour by adult standards.

@DonningMyHardHat totally agree. this is about using it as a chance for a chat about communicatoin/ relationships

Tbh I can’t imagine a 12 year old saying that to someone’s face either. Reality would be that they would be ignored at school or similar, which would be equally hurtful.
It’s tough as an adult to navigate these situations.

The simple logic here is:

1. He's been caught bullying this girl in the past (doesn't have to be specific to her, could be another girl/girls) with a group of his mates.

2. He's just sent her an unkind message.

3. Cyber bullying is a huge problem. Schools have to deal with it all the time.

Mum is trying to manage him, because he has form for this. Better to nip it in the bud with a kind family, that love him.

Don't be daft. We can call OP's 'devastated' response an overreaction and still acknowledge that there's a major issue among young men buying into Andrew Tate's incel ideology.

To say that's what's going on with OP's DS is wrong. He just wanted to make it clear to the girl that he didn't like her 'like that' but was too blunt in his text, which is more a sign of emotional immaturity than anything else.

I understand why you are disappointed in your ds.
But I think a more sensible approach would be to talk about and explain how written tones can be hard to interpret and how to speak kindly.
I'd also be talking with Lucy's mum tbh...her behaviour is not ok.

Oh I feel you OP. You just don’t know the best pathway and it’s so stressful. I’ve just seen my DS through this to 18 and it was constant wondering if we were doing it right. He was difficult, had only boy friends, spent lots of time gaming, didn’t appear to have any sensitivity etc. We had a few issues with a female cousin who was at the same high school because they were in a family group but also connected through friendship groups and my DS wasn’t super sensitive and she was very sensitive and it wasn’t the easiest transition and caused us some issues. Like you, I’m an ultra people pleaser and just wanted to fix it and really didn’t want feelings hurt. I also saw it as a reflection of us I guess as parents. We catastrophised. We saw him becoming Andrew Tate esque or a permanent gamer who couldn’t communicate with people.
Hes now 18. Feelings can still come harder to some boys I think but he’s a lovely lad now, but I realise my version of how I would like him to communicate is probably very female led and not his style. But - he has now gone from all boys friendship group to predominantly female group when at uni. I know he’s spoken about how he feels he has to watch out for them all on nights out, he is caring and protective of his sister (mainly lol) and to his female cousin that he’s now really close to. His female relationships are actually excellent now and only suddenly changed in the last 9-12 months.
Keep talking with him, keep reiterating kindness and why but please don’t panic. If Adolescence had been shown to me a few years ago I would have felt exactly the same and it would have made my imagination worse. But you’re doing all the right things in having those conversations with him x

First up, your friend and her daughter were pushing his boundaries, ignoring his no, putting him into situations that embarrassed him without him having the resources to deal with it at his age.

He dealt with it the only way he could, by being blunt to push her away.

'I don't like you' surely only means 'In that way', triggered by the kisses on the note.

Imagine: Would you have hit the roof if the sexes had been reversed? Or praised your daughter for knowing her own mind and not putting up with creepy behaviour by a boy and his dad?

I think you have over reacted there.

Start by agreeing nobody should have to 'be nice, be kind', when they're being made to feel uncomfortable. And that everybody has the right to say no. Including girls. That might help him start seeing girls as human, like him.

But on a different point, I agree boys are in crisis and they are turning to questionable role models and it's understandable to react. As parents it's a duty to teach them different ways to think and feel and behave.

Might be worth looking for some of the boys' groups that are out there and start a better sort of influence.

I had a similar experience when my son was a little bit older but the other child in question was the son of a friend. His mum is a good friend of mine and her DS (probable undiagnosed autism with no friends and poor social skills) would get pushed onto mine in a bid to make them bond. I knew they were never going to be friends but I encouraged my own DS to be nice and to tolerate him for the duration of the visit. It worked when they were younger but once my DS hit his teens he started to object to being forced to spend the day with someone he had nothing in common with and I had to respect that. After that we arranged visits that didn't need to involve the children mixing as well.

Because it's a girl here there is the added element of the fear of misogynistic bullying but if this was a girl putting down boundaries around a boy who seemed a bit over-familiar we would not have a problem with it. In fact she'd be given a pat on the back for being assertive. I think you need to explain to your DS that a casual kiss on a message is nothing more than a social nicety and a force of habit for a lot of people. It doesn't necessarily have any underlying meaning he should feel uncomfortable about. He can ignore it and just not respond in kind and that is enough to get the message across. That said, he might be aware that she does have a bit of a crush on him and you are totally oblivious to that?

When my other DS was 12 there were two girls in our street that he'd gone to primary school with and they started knocking on my door to speak to him. I'd have to go up to his room and tell him they wanted a chat. He'd roll his eyes and I'd say 'just go down and say hello. Be nice.' After about the third time of them doing this I overheard him say in a slightly irritated tone 'Why do you keep coming here?' I was horrified and ticked him off for being rude. But the fact is, one of the girls did openly have a crush on him and he just wasn't ready for any of that and didn't like her 'that way.' He was uncomfortable with the visits and he had a right to say that. Would I have encouraged my daughter to go downstairs and 'be nice' to two boys, one of whom wanted to be her boyfriend, knowing she was a) too young to be ready for that and b) not interested in him anyway? I doubt it.

While we should encourage tact in children as part of social development, no-one, boy or girl, is obliged to pander to other people's feelings if they are feeling uncomfortable with their attention. We complain that our girls have, for far too long, been conditioned to smile and be polite in the face of unwanted male attention. We are now encouraging them to understand it's okay to ask men and boys to leave them alone. I'm sure plenty would argue that they don't owe it to boys and men to make sure their egos are not bruised. Why does it feel wrong and 'rude' or mysoginist if a boy does the same to a girl?

100% this!

There seems to be a lot going on OP. As other PPs have said lots of food for thought and concern in the background about raising boys atm with Adolescence, plus how he’s treated the ex gf and then the fact that Lucy is a family friend and you feel protective over her too. You’ve also been unwell. Be kind to yourself. In the grand scheme of life neither you or DS have done anything awful.

this is probably a good time for you to go back and say on reflection DS, I think I’ve overreacted. I was upset because of x,y,z - be honest and explain your concerns, why you think it’s really important he is respectful of girls and that you didn’t want Lucy to be upset. But also explain you’re glad he was able to set his boundaries - perhaps he can be a bit more tactful. If no other reason to withold, I’d probably allow him his phone back for the holiday and keep an eye on him. It sounds like you’re being really diligent but as other PPs have said going too far in one direction may just make hiDe evidence / delete things quicker and withdraw. Also agree with no phones overnight potentially but not sure that random spot checks of phone messages build trust - more likely he will delete anything he thinks may be incriminating and it is a bit of an intrusion of privacy. Perhaps only resort to this again if you evidence / suspicion that he is at risk of harm to himself / others. But at the same time I do think social media should be monitored somehow - someone cleverer than me with teenagers may have a better idea. It’s a minefield OP. I think you have misjudged this which is ok - no one is perfect and the teenage years are hard. Don’t be too hard on yourself and please enjoy your break x