To be devastated by what DS has done or am I over-reacting?

[Acunningruse]

Short version: DS (12yo) sent a message to a family friend’s daughter (call her Lucy) saying “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages”
😢 I saw this when doing a random check of his phone, hit the roof and have banned his phone for Easter weekend and given him extra chores.

Long version:
DS (12) has struggled hugely with the transition from a tiny primary to big secondary school. He seems to be trying to be the big I am, the cool guy.

We are involved parents concerned about social media and we check his phone regularly. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way.

Lucy text DS yesterday with pictures of their holiday and DS response was “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages “

I am hugely upset by this to think he could possibly think this is an acceptable way to speak to someone. Lucy is a very sweet very naive girl (suspect SEN) who would have been devastated to read this. Im hopeful i managed to delete the message before she saw it (no blue ticks) but I can’t be sure. I don’t know if I did the right thing by deleting I just wanted to spare her feelings.

when we confronted DS he just kept saying “I don’t want her to think I like her in that way”. We talked about men and women being friends, you can put kisses in messages and it doesn’t mean anything, but he was not as remorseful as we felt he should have been.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media. Not to mention we are going away with friends whose kids will all have their phones so DS will be an absolute nightmare sulking about not having his but we feel we have to do something.

parenting a pre-teen is all new to us (DD is 9) and every other day I feel like we are getting it wrong.

Am I over reacting? under reacting? I haven’t slept in days (sick bug in house) and I just don’t know what to do any more.

@Viviennemary excellent contribution to the thread. If anyone needs any advice in future it’s @Viviennemary guys! A fountain of knowledge.

This acceptance of children being so mean to each other is really sad.

Children are far more brutal than this...

I mean I’m feminist as fuck but agree it’s not fair to disregard the fact our boys need to exercise boundaries too. Clumsy wording ? You chat about it and coach a better choice of words for next time. He’s 12 - we all occasionally fuck up amd inadvertently upset people. As long as we learn and make sure we are more considerate next time it’s not a problem.Unless this is a drip feed it sounds like OP you don’t have a misogyny issue brewing but it’s good to be on top of things and keep talking especially if his dad is on the sale page as you and is engaged in this process also

Adults need to stop expecting a child to see the world through adults’ eyes.

Really good point @noworklifebalance

Each to their own. I’ve raised my kids to be trusted rather than monitored. They’re all young adults now.

I meant privacy of messages sent to friends. IMHO kids should be able to chat to friends at 12 without a parent reading it. Just like they should be able to write a diary without a parent reading it. Or keep things in their room without a parent looking through it.

I would have been pretty angry about the messages to the girl at school when she asked him and his friends to stop calling her names. But this other message is about his resentment of the parents pushing him together with Lucy - and taking it out on her. I think rephrasing the message and knocking the family gatherings on the head for a bit is fair.

@EdithBond don't you think things have changed somewhat if your dc are young adults now?

Some people just tell it as it is whether we like it or not. His punishment for this is that he's probably upset someone and they won't think about their friendship in the same way any more.

in terms of social media & online safety?

Teach this age group and you are hugely overreacting. It is a teachable moment but not one to ruin your holiday over.

When he’s not feeling so under scrutiny have a chat with him about kindness and empathy. How would he feel if this was written to him etc?

Honestly I’ve seen lovely kids write far worse on SM, they can be vicious. But it’s our job to teach them how to grow as little human beings

Find time when you’re calm to chat, and enjoy your time away!

I never say this, but think about it with the genders reversed - you are trying to push him not to set a boundary and to think about the other person's feelings instead.

Chat with him about phrasing things sensitively but don't shame him out of having boundaries.

You're hugely overreacting, he could have been a bit softer with it, but there again if it was a girl I'd be applauding her for drawing a firm no nonsense boundary.

I’m surprised at the pile on OP is receiving on this thread. She knows her son and it looks like she has noticed a pattern of behaviour she is concerned about, she has come here for help on how to approach the situation, not for people to judge whether she’s really seeing what she is seeing - instead, she’s faced with a flurry of posts minimising her observations, invalidating her and questioning her sanity.

@Acunningruse I don’t think you are overreacting, I agree with previous posters who have suggested open communication and I do think you are right to take his devices away. From what you have said, it sounds like he is starting to adopt the attitude that girls belong in one of two groups, those you ‘like that way’ (are attracted to) and those you don’t, with the latter not meriting respect. His feeling uncomfortable spending time with a girl he doesn’t ‘like that way’ because he doesn’t want other people to think he likes her, and assuming she ‘likes’ him because she has been friendly, suggests this.

I think you could use this as an opportunity to see girls as people worthy of respect in their own right rather than as objects of desire. The phase he’s going through is a function of puberty so he needs to learn how to handle and express those feelings appropriately and DH could help with this, so the misogynistic values in wider culture don’t take root. You can teach him that boys and girls can be friends without there being anything more to it and that even friendships require healthy boundaries, so it’s important to communicate those boundaries with kindness and respect. It’s also a good opportunity to talk about handling rejection in a healthy way, whether on the giving or receiving end, and how it is something everyone will face as part of life and not a signifier of the value of the person. Good luck!

I think you're getting a hard time here. I do agree with pp that being "devestated" by the Lucy situation is an overreaction, but I think some posters are missing the fact that it's not just Lucy, you've identified a pattern of your DS being unkind/disrespectful to girls in a way he isn't to boys. Combine this with a general change in his attitude, peer pressure and giving it 'the big I am' since starting secondary and I can see why you're anxious about where this is heading. I work with kids and frankly there are a hell of a lot of parents who under-react to/ignore/dismiss possible signs of misogyny in their adolescent boys.

It's good that you routinely check his phone. You mentioned Andrew Tate, do you have reason to believe that your DS is following AT or similar misogynist influencers? If so you have a right to be concerned. But I do think that the Netflix show Adolescence has created a lot of panic among parents about online misogyny and Incel culture and there is now an unhelpful assumption that all boys are following this stuff. It's good to keep an eye on it, but panic is rarely helpful. Keep checking his phone, keep the conversation open and encourage positive male role models.

As for Lucy, I think he was clumsy and thoughtless but 12 year old boys aren't exactly known for their tact and diplomacy. It can feel really embarrassing when you think someone you're not into has a crush on you, and teenagers do not cope well with embarrassment. He's probably worried about his friends taking the piss. I wouldn't punish him for what he said, personally but I would talk about how it will have made Lucy feel and how he could have made it clear to her that he doesn't like her in 'that' way without being unkind.

Yes, we all think like that when our children are six, that’s appropriate for six year olds. This boy isn’t six, he’s twelve and he’s not a little boy nor is he an adult.

If your twelve year old dd was being pushed into spending time alone with a twelve year old boy on holiday by his mother and then she was getting texts from a boy with kisses on them and you told your twelve year old daughter to just rub along with people she didn’t like and to be polite then you would be letting her down.

Technology has moved on a lot though, if your children are now adults. What was normal even 10 years ago online, is VERY different now. For example, the average age that children see porn online is between 11 & 12. 11!. And of course, most porn is misogynistic crap.

The risks online are much bigger now. So a parent checking their childs internet usage is sensible.

In what way? They had smart phones at 12.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way

This episode is key - your poor son.
He was “mortified” and kept saying “I don’t want Lucy to think I like her that way”.

What did you do about this OP?
Did you help your son navigate this situation or did you expect him to get on with it as you thought Lucy was sweet and needed support?
He then got a text from Lucy with kisses and probably panicked and sent the very blunt reply.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media.

This is a massive over reaction.
You will get an Andrew Tate situation if you vilify your son in this way without acknowledging his boundaries and helping him navigate this. He is not a tool to be used

I think he could do with some practical examples of how to handle a situation where he's uncomfortable and wants to draw a boundary (both completely reasonable) but without being unnecessarily cruel.

I would probably try to give him alternatives you would have been happy with, otherwise you're basically just saying, "no, not that! That's bad!" but then leaving a vacuum.

Maybe say to him: it sounds like you were feeling like you were being pushed towards Lucy, were worried that she'd think you were romantically interested, or that you would be forced to be friends with someone you haven't chosen and/or were worried what people would think. First, if you're feeling that way, come and talk to me and your dad and we will help you extract yourself. And give him an example of a text he could have sent to Lucy to make it nicely clear that he didn't fancy her.

You might also make it clear that being a gentleman while drawing boundaries will actually make him more popular with girls and that showing enough confidence to be kind and laugh things off actually comes across as much stronger than stroppy meanness. You could honestly even role play it with him if he'll let you!

Ha. And we have a crisis of boys emulating Andrew Tate but explaining to a boy that hanging out with a girl his own age for one day at a get together is no big deal is dramatic and ridiculous...

Your poor DS. You've over reacted massively here. Sounds like standard 12 year old boy behaviour, he even started his message with "mate" to let her know she's a friend but no mushy stuff like kisses were needed. Give him his phone and games back and say sorry.

I agree. Some people post on here about "being rude" like it's the absolute worst thing you can be. Sometimes you have to be to stand up for yourself.

It sounds like more than just encouraging them to hang out. OP says the other mum was pushy, so much so that they felt they needed to "put measures in place" to give OP's son a break from Lucy and her pushy mother.

OP I agree you've massively overreacted - comparing your 12 y.o DS to Andrew Tate when all he did was clunkily assert a boundary is really sad. Where's his dad in all of this? Why is raising a respectful young man just down to you? if he was a girl and had done this i think you might have been more forgiving and recognised he was trying to stop someone from making him uncomfortable.

Kindly, I think you’re worrying more about Lucy and the potential fall out with your friend, if she shows her mum the message, and it’s made you react. You need to strip it back to think only of your son and not how others may react.

If you’re too “strict” it can create a divide between you and he won’t talk to you.

You need to tell him certain behaviours are unacceptable (calling a girl rude names with his friends)

Some things he could do differently - it’s fine to ask Lucy not to send kisses and to clarify he doesn’t like her romantically, but she is a friend of the family and he could have been kinder or spoke to you about it.

Taking his phone away for the Lucy message seems harsh. I’d say that you’ve thought about it and while you think the message was too harsh, you maybe over reacted a bit and here’s the phone back. But ask him to chat with you if he has any issues like that in future.

Is it a smart phone? Tbh I think a phone at 11 or 12 is bonkers, unless it’s a basic phone just to make calls.