To be devastated by what DS has done or am I over-reacting?

[Acunningruse]

Short version: DS (12yo) sent a message to a family friend’s daughter (call her Lucy) saying “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages”
😢 I saw this when doing a random check of his phone, hit the roof and have banned his phone for Easter weekend and given him extra chores.

Long version:
DS (12) has struggled hugely with the transition from a tiny primary to big secondary school. He seems to be trying to be the big I am, the cool guy.

We are involved parents concerned about social media and we check his phone regularly. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way.

Lucy text DS yesterday with pictures of their holiday and DS response was “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages “

I am hugely upset by this to think he could possibly think this is an acceptable way to speak to someone. Lucy is a very sweet very naive girl (suspect SEN) who would have been devastated to read this. Im hopeful i managed to delete the message before she saw it (no blue ticks) but I can’t be sure. I don’t know if I did the right thing by deleting I just wanted to spare her feelings.

when we confronted DS he just kept saying “I don’t want her to think I like her in that way”. We talked about men and women being friends, you can put kisses in messages and it doesn’t mean anything, but he was not as remorseful as we felt he should have been.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media. Not to mention we are going away with friends whose kids will all have their phones so DS will be an absolute nightmare sulking about not having his but we feel we have to do something.

parenting a pre-teen is all new to us (DD is 9) and every other day I feel like we are getting it wrong.

Am I over reacting? under reacting? I haven’t slept in days (sick bug in house) and I just don’t know what to do any more.

I think it’s important to see it from both sides.

Do you think girls never dismiss boys that are unattractive to them? IME at secondary school girls are far more overt about this. They run away from and tease each other about ‘geeks’. Boys don’t generally do that.

Or the online influence of ”I’m looking for a man in finance, trust fund, 6’5”, blue eyes”?

Sorry this is the post I was meant to quote - by @ohdearagain2

Gosh I get your concern but you have to be careful not pushing him away so he a) goes secretive and hides things from you like
deletes his messages and b) stops confiding in you.
I would have prob said not cool buddy - this message would hurt her feelings kisses don’t mean she is seeing you in that way - can you delete this?
And give him back his phone and say why the message was not cool and he needs to think of how others will feel when reading it - you don’t want to start his teens years as a war - you want to have open and honest conversations about things so you are going to give him back his phone for the holiday and trust he’s going to think about things going forward

These days many teens/younger people don't put kisses at the end of messages.

They only do it for crushes/ bf/gf, maybe girls do it with close friends at a push.

All he needs to do is maybe send another message saying- sorry that came across mean, I like you as a friend that's all.

I disagree with the responses and suspect they are coming from a female perspective of sometimes finding it hard to set boundaries and having an inclination towards people pleasing, so all they see here is a strong 12 year old who should be applauded for having boundaries. However, having seen a boy (my brother) grow from a mean boy into a misogynistic adult I actually think the OP is right to be seeing the signs early and stepping in.

If the text message was the only incident then that could potentially be explained away but this is a patter of behaviour. And it is behaviour that indicates he sees himself as above the females around him. he was awful to his ex, he then showed a lack of remorse which indicates he didn’t respect his mother when she told him off, and I don’t think it’s clear cut at all that the text message was a clumsy attempt to stop flirting. Her message doesn’t sound flirtatious or like she was pestering him so I suspect he could have just been enjoying giving her a little put down, knowing she might be on the spectrum so he feels he has the power.

Is it just you taking control of these situations? This is where a good dad should step up tbh.

He sounds too immature to have gfs at this age too.

If you’re this concerned, why has your 12 year old got WhatsApp?

Absolutely this. No-one is saying the child is Andrew Tate but l think OP is right to be worried.

I get that he was pushing back against the girls’ mother trying to get them together but the message was a bit brutal - if they’re friends how was she supposed to interpret ‘l don’t like you’ ? If this was the only message OP had picked up on then it probably warranted no more than a chat as to how to be a bit more tactful to avoid hurt feelings, but the boy has form for this. He’s engaged in group bullying of a girlfriend after they broke up, and was unkind when she asked him to stop.

I don’t blame OP for not trusting him enough not to spot check his phone. These instances, plus the change in behaviour since the transition in schools are red flags. He’s 12. Better a loving family nip this in the bud now and teach him to respect women, rather than dealing with bigger problems when he’s older.

I have a friend who has a 2nd family with her husband. Her 2 step-sons are lovely boys. She has 3 girls with her husband and 1 boy (he's the youngest).

She was aghast at how differently her husband treated her son and thought he was too harsh with him. But he explained to her that raising boys was very different to raising girls. And now the whole family are older she agrees. Her husband equated it to having a newspaper to whack a puppies nose with when it was misbehaving (no actual whacking of anything/anyone, just a metaphor). He said, with boys, you have to keep on reiterating the same messages. Be kind. Be gentle. Physical play isn't always appropriate, read the room. Less touching (in fun). Hands to yourself.

They have a genuinely lovely family and now I have a son, I often think of what her husband said. I do think it related to a specific type of boy (like my son 😂) who IS a bit like a puppy. Happy, lively, loud, acting first, thinking later. I do have to keep on with the same messages, because it takes a LONG time for him to take them on board.

Just to say, I do recognise there are lots of other types of boys. But the puppy analogy from an experienced father was fab, for me. As someone that used to work in education, I think we have to be very conscious of who we want our children to be (as in, good people) and work towards that. Because as Adolescence (and the constant stream of shit men reports on MN) have shown us, the opposite is horrible.

I think you’re at the end of that carefree stage where your kids and your friends kids will all play together happily just because you've brought them together. In the teenage years you have to respect their boundaries a bit more, they should get to choose from this point who they want to spend time with, and some of the combinations of people that worked well when the kids were little wont work any more.

You and especially Lucy’s mum need to come to terms with this and back off, stop trying to force them together, and before you book your next holiday, talk to him about what he wants to do and if he still wants to spend holidays with this family. And before you go on this holiday, talk to him about how he’s feeling now and work out together how to navigate this so everyone has an ok time. It’s a hard adjustment for you but a natural developmental stage that he's going through.

If he doesn't have to push back so hard to have his feelings taken into consideration, he’ll probably find it easier to be polite to her.

Completely OTT reaction. He's 12 and a chat about how to politely tell Lucy that he doesn't like the kisses, without being so blunt about it, is one thing. Punishing him for trying to spell out his boundaries, is quite another

If only grown men could be as open, honest and direct about their feelings.

Lots saying that kisses doesn’t equate to anything romantic.
Perhaps so in an adult world (not that I ever to put a kiss when texting a man who is not a very good friend) but I suspect things are different in a 12 year old’s world and between schools.

I wouldn't be devastated but I would be annoyed at his rudeness. It wasn't the nicest reply. I would tell him be a bit more polite to others.

It's not your son's problem that your friend's daughter has issues. He is 12.

By both of you trying to make it his problem when he clearly isn't interested, you are stoking resentment in him and making it almost inevitable he will take that resentment out on her.

I’m coming from a parenting perspective of raising a daughter who sometimes has been mean , sometimes thoughtless and sometimes imposed necessary boundaries (nicely and harshly).

Each incident was dealt with accordingly depending on the circumstances. Sometimes consequences, sometimes learning moment and chats and sometimes praise and support. She’s neither a misandrist or mysoginist (incidents involved both boys and girls, romantically and platonically). She’s just a kid figuring it all out and sometimes fucking up.

Why are you trying to appease others but not your Ds

There is teaching him to be respectful of women and there’s teaching him that his feelings don’t count when it comes to dealing with women

Think you have done more harm than good.

Wait till he finds out he can delete messages off his phone after they have been sent.

It’s a difficult age. He was setting a boundary but crossed the line into being hurtful. He could have just responded without xx and left it at that. Lots of us use xx without thinking. There was no need to say he doesn’t like her. Likewise if it
was a girl receiving xx.

I’d just explain to him that he can think things without having to type them, because words hurt and can be remembered years later. I’m in my 50s and don’t accept Facebook friend requests from people who were unkind to me at school in the 80s.

I work with young adults and some of the young women put xx on the end of text messages to ask for a meeting when they wouldn’t use xx by email. I don’t ask them to stop, just respond professionally with no xx.

I think he’s embarrassed at the thought of a girl sending him kisses and needs to know that Lucy might have done this from habit because she uses xx in all her messages.

If it was xxxxxxxxxxxx and ♥️ 🥰 then he could say he thinks of her as a friend but that’s all, then she gets the message but doesn’t have to think about someone actively disliking her.

Also, it’s good not to burn bridges. When Lucy is a beautiful 17 year old and he’d welcome some kisses IRL, she’s going to choose someone else.

To go slightly off on a tangent, OP. This phase of boyhood can be difficult with certain boys. My eldest was fine, but my youngest went through an Andrew Tate phase where he thought AT was top G 🙄 and was quite derogatory when it came to girls and women. I HATED it, we would argue, I would point out things. Looking back I can see it was a phase. He's 16 now and much, much better. Andrew Tate was v much a young teen thing and I think eventually good parenting can overcome that - loads of discussions on why xyx is not respectful, does not align with the values we have taught - how would you feel if someone did those things about your sister/ mum.

So basically I'm saying it's fairly normal. If you deal with it through questioning, listening, discussion and debate he will come through the other side in a couple of years and remain close to you.

Let him have his phone! And apologise, apologies go a long way with this age. They know you're not prefect anyway.

I totally get you feeling how you do. I think I'd be more annoyed that he was calling his ex names than the Lucy situation (although appreciate with Lucy it was more close to home for you).

I do think he was clumsy with Lucy but also that he was worried she'd think he "liked" her. I'd help him do a more gentle message. The last thing you want is to alienate him.

I'd also tell him it's a rule never to call people names and that's a hard line as it's basically bullying to deal with the ex situation. Also let him know that the grown up and "cool" (insert better word there!) way to deal with a break up is not to say anything negative and move on with no drama. Ds is 13, year 8 and the boys that are a bit mean to girls don't get girlfriends as the girls talk.

So a girl is allowed to impose boundaries but a boy isn’t?

How would you expect your partner to respond if a colleague was ending messages to him with x s?

Probably in a similar way to how your son responded. This one needed fine tuning, not horrific behaviour.

Also, it’s good not to burn bridges. When Lucy is a beautiful 17 year old and he’d welcome some kisses IRL, she’s going to choose someone else.

Seriously? This kind of thinking is more insulting and mysoginistic than anything he has done. Be nice to her because she might become fuckable in time? Give your head a wobble!

I also think this very much depends on how you interpret "I don't like you".

If he meant "I don't fancy you" then it's not so bad.

I interpreted it as "I don't like you as a person" which I would have been devastated to receive as an awkward teen girl, whether the message was from a boy or a girl.

Completely over-reaction!! Poor boy! You should be thinking more about him adjusting to relationships of all kinds rather than worried about the effect on your own friendship group.

You should be supporting him in putting boundaries in place around contact that makes him uncomfortable.

If a 12yr old girl was texting an overly keen boy, egged on by his parents, to say “I don’t fancy you, stop sending me kisses”, we’d be cheering her on.

Also, it’s good not to burn bridges. When Lucy is a beautiful 17 year old and he’d welcome some kisses IRL, she’s going to choose someone else.

One of the most misogynistic things l’ve read in a long time. Be nice to her now because you might want to fuck her in a few years ? Seriously ?