To think I can't be the only person who doesn't know a single trans person

[VioletSpeedwell]

Seriously.

The news is full of people worrying about how the SC ruling will affect people who identify as trans.

Where are they? Not in my office (large organisation), my family or social groups. I don't come across any in the village where I live or when I go into town.

DD is at university and doesn't know any trans people.

Surely, I can't be the only one?

My female cousin was adamant from the age of 4 that she was a boy.
Short hair. Boys clothes. Changed name. Referred to GIDS. Puberty blockers. Fake penis down the trousers etc.
Aged 20 cousin is very much a female again and very very angry at all the adults that went along with a 4 year olds fantasy.

But a 12 yo can't be described as any kind of man, just as I wouldn't say a same sex attracted 12yo was definitely gay. I would say I think X might end up being trans or same sex attracted or whatever. It is really important these kids aren't pidgeon holed with no way out.

Sorry saw this was the 14yo my point stands however.

Bloody appalling. So sorry this was allowed to happen. I hope she has support, medically, to try and correct/rebalance any damage done by PBs and that one day she might feel strong enough to share her story, even anonymously?

My DD is 20 next week and still describes her self a NB, but not as trans and is totally accepting that she is a woman/female. I think she still wishes she were born a boy, but she’s heading off to uni in Sept and looking forward to having a proper life after 3 years wallowing in a trans delusory depressive state. Am hoping that, as she wisely avoided art degrees and art school, that she will be surrounded by more grounded peers and the residual threads of this stuff will fray and break off. Also hoping she meets a nice, sensible, girl and falls in love… 🤞

Dave A is a threat still though.

There is no evidence at all that a male who is at any stage of transition is less of a risk than another male person in the UK.

This perception that you have is not based on fact and not supported by evidence. A male who has made a great deal of effort to ‘transition’ is still the same male they were before any transitioning at all. The amount of effort they expend is irrelevant .

Dave A and Dave B can both get the hell out of women’s spaces, thank you very much.

My experience in secondary schools is that peers will often cheer on girls who identify as boys. It makes it very difficult for them to detransition while at school.

I once had an entire senior class yelling "You MISGENDERED John!" when I read out the register of a class that I was covering for an absent teacher.

It turned out that John's parents still called her Mary and disagreed with her identifying as a boy. I only found this out afterwards.

At the end of the period, I apologised to John and explained that she needed a letter from her parents if she wanted her new name on her exam certificate. "Oh no...that's fine. That's all right..."

As soon as she left school, she was Mary again.

Rape in UK law involves a penis.

So transwomen can and have been convicted of it. What I and many others objected to was categorisation as 'female' and media reporting as such when it was never a woman perpetrator.

And women can be convicted of it if they were present and encouraged the rape involving the penis.

But sexual assault can be committed by men, women, transwomen and transmen. And children. Rape can be committed by male children.

Having a penis removed or just not having a penis ever doesn't mean someone is not a sexual threat.

Adams apple.

The first trans woman I met was approx 1990 and she was probably in her mid-50s at the time. I was told about her transition by a colleague, and if I hadn't been told she was trans, I would have just thought she was a tall, heavily built woman.

At another place I worked, there were at least 2 transwomen. One I would never have guessed or suspected (a bit taller than average, slim, willowy and very pretty), the other was tall and broad shouldered but nothing about their appearance made you think "bloke in a frock".

I know several trans people of both sexes and one who is gender fluid now, partly because I work for an organisation that is renowned for its tolerance and acceptance of differences and partly because I live and work fairly near Brighton.

I hate the focus on passing, for many reasons.

1. You can almost always tell. Yes you can. I’m far from being the most observant person in the world. I couldn’t tell you a thing about gait or Q angles yet within a second or two I can spot a transwoman.

2. In the unlikely event that they do pass then they are deceiving people. Why should I feel comfortable around someone who is actively trying to deceive me especially in order to access women’s spaces?

3. They’re still men. It doesn’t matter how stereotypically feminine they look or what surgery they have had. They are still men and always will be.

4. I don’t want to encourage people to take harmful drugs and undergo damaging procedures in order to “pass”.

5. I don’t care what they look like. It’s irrelevant really because I don’t want to share women’s spaces with men regardless of what they identify as or how they appear.

Not directed at you specifically as there have been multiple posters in to 'educate' on this threat. I've been very careful to reference my own individual experience in relation to this particular person. I wasn't threatened, not by her. If another transwoman came into the changing room I might well be and if so I would ask them to leave, I have no problem doing that.

I said in my post that "Men are stronger and that is the only reason that this person is a potential threat, there is no other.", I thought that was clear. Men are stronger, they are able to overcome women if they choose to, whether that is sexual violence or just bog standard male violence.

I don't know whether this thread was started in good faith or not but I've posted, explained and I haven't anything else to add.

I really, really see that you're coming in good faith.

But it's an incredibly outdated and damaging idea to think that sexual violence or domestic violence has to involve force or physical strength.

It's not about that at all.

I'm not sure how old you are or how new you to forums but this is a well known fact.

No, it doesn’t HAVE to involve [the actual use of] force or physical strength… but the knowledge that the other party is stronger and could use it is a powerful underpinning to psychological and emotional abuse. To state otherwise is disingenuous.

I agree with you but the reasonable side of me feels I would compromise for DaveB if the Transactivists would have a grown up conversation about it.

Would you say an opposite sex attracted 12 year old was definitely straight? Or would that be pigeon holing them with ‘no way out’ (the horror!)

I think it can be removed

There is an operation to shave it, apparently.

I have one former pupil who is MtF. (He transitioned after going to university.) I've not seen him since he transitioned but I believe that he's had every possible surgery - to the concern of his family. They've accepted his transition, but they're deeply worried for him. (No, I've never brought up the subject. It's one of these situations where you keep a respectful silence when a family member mentions it.)

When confronted with Dave A and Dave B in a single sex space, how do you tell them apart?
Bearing in mind, neither of them will pass as a woman.
Like any two men, either or both may be a threat, (or neither, of course), but you won’t know until the worst actually happens.
Neither of them belongs there.

I Googled it and 0.5 % of the population are said to be trans according to a study undertaken in 2021. So on average you would have to know 200 people who were 100% open about their identity in order to encounter one person who is trans.

No I wouldn't the brain is only half finished growing at 12. In the same way a tall 10 year old might end up taller than average but then again they may not.

Great.

I won't compromise. So that should be all that is needed for both Daves to not be there.

There is no difference between a male person with a penis and a male person without a penis except one doesn't have a penis. There was no magic that occurred in the process.

All that could be said is that some male people have a philosophical belief about their identity. However, what other group of male people with philosophical beliefs about themselves do we have to even consider allowing into our single sex spaces?

That philosophical belief has been used as a tool of emotional manipulation to support a group of male people to get what they demand.

How do we know whether we are dealing with Dave A or Dave B before Dave walks into the women's changing rooms?

Are we doing genital inspections now?

This is the absolute crux of the matter. We took a wrong turn when we started turning a blind eye to males using single-sex services and spaces designed to keep women and girls safe and give them privacy. In some cases people positively encouraged the males to breach those boundaries. That has to stop now. Back to the days when we all knew that an obvious male entering a female space was up to no good and he would be challenged, no matter how he identified.

Yes because the less than 1% of trans women will be massive issue on those things 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄. Let’s waste millions on that instead of investing in laws that actually protect women , education, better child care that is a massive issue with women careers , less forced marriages that is a massive issue in the U.K. etc etc etc