Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

[cassandre]

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

What do you think it proves then on the context of this discussion?

Also, what is a woman? I would have thought this was an easy one for you seeing as you’re a staunch defender of “TWAW”

I’ve seen above: you don’t say what this proves? Or why you think it wasn’t evidence in the case?

We have all been discriminated against. Doesn’t mean men can be women.

No one is saying trans people shouldn’t worry - they can worry a it whatever they like. But what’s it got to do with women? Why is it women’s problem?

You really haven’t.

Ill and it easier: does it prove men can change sex, yes or no?

Also - what is a woman?

I think people like @AlizeeEasy are perhaps where a lot of gender critical feminists once were themselves - they saw the perfectly nice, glamorous and highly feminine TW of the world who get the big exposure and struggle to college this with being a man. But dig a bit deeper, understand the issues a bit more, understand nearly all TW keep their penises and learn about the Karen Whites of the world, it doesn’t seem so superficial anymore.

I’m gonna a make another call for an answer:

What is a woman?

If not sex based, what is a woman? Bonus points go to anyone who can answers without using sexist stereotypes

There was absolutely no need to make reference to sex or gender.

If it had not been so unnecessary it would not have been so awful. I turned to DH and offered a bet that the victorious woman would manage to work the word ‘he’ or ‘him’ into the convo, concerning her opponent. He took one look at her face and said, No - I’m sure you are right.

No one has said anyone can change their chromosomes and no one is trying to make that point.

I'm deeply unhappy about the judgement. I think those celebrating it are incredibly misguided. We now have a 2-tier Equality Act and I wonder what else will now be downgraded. Given that Thursday was about barely disguised bigotry, mental ill health is my top prediction. I have been successfully using that legislation for many years to stop both men and women from treating people unfairly, but it isn't going to be any bloody use now that some protected characteristics are more protected than others. Look at all that Feminism has achieved, and then halve it. I watched those women celebrating their Pyrrhic victory and thought "Feminism has died - no flowers". And then I actually wept for my trans friend who finally completed their journey in their fifties, only to have ignominy piled upon them from here on.

’Proof’ is not the relevant word. It starts to make a good case that trans brains are different

I agree.

They used the correct pronouns 🙄 Hardly earth shattering.

One can be absolutely furious about every rape that occurs and still fearful that this judgment is opening the way to legalised hate.

So much drama here and so little substance. 🙄

The ruling clarified that being a 'woman' in legal terms will be defined by biological sex. That is all. If people can't cope with the implications of that then they need psychological help.

The use of pronouns for a person is dependant on whether you choose to use the established language conventions which mean they are used as per sex or whether you comply with the philosophical belief of the person who has told you to use different pronouns than for their sex.

If you don't believe in that person's philosophical belief about their identity that doesn't reflect material reality, why is there a societal expectation to act as if you do? What other philosophical belief is there the same societal expectation to act upon?

Why should a person be shamed in the way that you are shaming Maya Forstater for not complying with the demand that society uses the opposite sex pronouns for that person?

And did you miss the part in the interview, and my mentioning it that the male barrister actually mentioned about having sex with a partner without telling the partner that they were male? The only difference seems to be that the sex partner has not reported that male person for sex by deception, but they could. And sex by deception is a crime.

You are shaming a woman for not using pronouns that defy the established language conventions but you are ignoring that this barrister if the partner reported them, would be a sex offender.

Hatred of what? Scientific facts?

I think some careful study is required. IMO there should be different conclusions for different spaces.

And those of us who have seen friends suffer until their bodies could match their hearts and minds (to some extent) and are now desperately worried for them might argue that the question is subtle

So... it 'starts to make a good case'? But you said “Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon” and then posted the study.

Which is it? Starts to make a good case or does it support the absolute statement that you made?

So, do you have a link for the study that you keep claiming supports your now 'grey' claim? Because without the data, the abstract raises far more questions than it covers.

For instance, did they compare age groups like for like when they made those conclusions? What was the exogenous hormonal treatment status of each of the participants? What were the comorbidities that were controlled for?

Do you have this data please?

@poetryandwine ive just watched the Channel 4 piece you’re so outraged by.

Maya Forstater didn’t call Samantha Kane a man. Samantha went on a deluded tirade stating “I’m not a transwoman I’m a woman!” Which was clearly a lie and the newsreader asked Maya to respond. Maya said that Samantha can refer to himself however he likes.

Maya would have been rather a hypocrite is she used Samantha’s preferred pronouns really - because Samantha IS a man. Let’s not forget Maya has been through hell and back with her employer sacking her over stating facts and exercising free speech. She doesn’t owe deluded man anything.

How have you been using the Act for years when you clearly don't understand it?

The law has not changed. No protections have been lost. There are no tiers and no downgrades.

Embarrassing.

There was absolutely no need to make reference to sex or gender.

In a debate about gender really?

Samantha Hunt started the “I am a woman” nonsense. Saying he isn’t a transwoman but a woman. Clear bullshit. Why should anyone pander to the delusions of a man in his 60’s?

What is the point then?

It is you who is being wilfully blind. My friend is now not supposed to share our loos or changing areas. If she is strip searched by the police, it will be by a man "if a trans officer isn't available" - some hope! The NHS will probably have to put her on a male ward. If she goes to prison, it will be to a male prison. If you think that's dramatic, I think you are either pretending to yourself that the harm has not been done, which I hope is the case, or you have a problem with trans people. Furthermore, unless you have rattled the Equality Act under people's noses, as I have many times, you cannot imagine the effect of having some people more protected than others. On a final note, no one is defined by the arrangement of their chromosomes. Diminishing women to that level is not what the true feminists were seeking to achieve. This isn't drama - its just the unwinding of 15 years of fabulously useful legislation that helped us to see people as individuals. It is retrograde.

Actually the abstract is of Bakker’s conference presentation. Nothing wrong with that. However it appears related to, possibly amongst others, the following papers of which she is an author:

Alterations in the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus - a specific neural correlate of gender incongruence?
Psychological Medicine, March 2022

Brain functional connectivity patterns in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Sex atypical or not?
Psychoneuroendocrinology 86 Sept 2017

Regional volumes and spatial volumetric distribution of grey matter in the gender dysphoric brain
Psychoneuroendocrinolgy 55C Jan 2015

The top paper is open access. If you search on the title you should be able to access it. I estimate that at the time of the 2018 conference it was planned work.

Psychoneuroendocrinolgy does not appear to be an open access journal. I have institutional access which I do not propose to violate. However I see that Dr (Julie) Bakker is open to requests for copies of her papers. She is at the University of Liege. If you are really interested in her work you could email her to request copies of the papers.

You clearly don’t understand the ruling.

Trans people are protected under the EA

Women are also protected under the EA.

The definitions have simply been made clear.

What are the 2 tiers?

What is “completing a trans journey”?

I agree more support for MH services - perhaps if we had that then poor teenagers wouldn’t be sold a lie and delusion that they are the opposite sex because they hate their bodies and fancy girls.