Person with MH problems should not be better off no working

[YourTidyScroller]

Just that really. Someone working a minimum wage job full-time should not be worse off than someone not working due to mental health problems and claiming benefits.
I know several people in this situation claiming UC for housing benefit, council tax, ESA, disability top up and PIP. They all have no work record and few qualifications so would probably only get a minimum wage job. But their income would reduce. So they have a financial incentive not to recover.

what question?

This is not actually true. My parent has MH and gets ESA plus housing benefit. İt totals to around 1200 pm. A full time NMW job would add to 1800 pm after tax. Fair enough her rent is lower as she lives in a council property, but there's still a housing benefit cap which is only about 100-200 more than she actually gets.

İf she claimed PİP she would get more, but this is actually for the extra costs of mental health. However she didn't get PİP and her MH meant she couldn't face appealing.

As a single parent with a disability, I get more than a single person on NMW, but this is because I get UC for having a child and have a higher rent allowance for having a child. İt's all relative. When my daughter is an adult, I will be better off working than the amount I would get on limited capacity and single person's UC.

Plus there's the added bonus of someone with MH issues being able to pick up a few extra shifts if their mashing machine breaks, or they want a holiday. Someone on a limited income on benefits either has to apply to charities or get into debt, for these extra life challenges.

It’s a very difficult problem to solve, and posts like this always result in angry replies from people outlining how awful their lives are.

Of course there are many people with physical and mental disabilities that render them completely unable to work, and these people should be adequately supported financially.

However, as unpalatable as it is to accept, there are some people who would be capable of working, but choose not to, and manage to get benefits they aren’t really entitled to. It may be that they’re lazy, or (more often) they’ve simply lost their confidence, having been out of work for so long.

The difficulty is in identifying those in the latter group, who should be supported to return to work, whilst not penalising those in the former group, who really can’t work.

@Whoistheeasterbunny The three people I know all get PIP.

And they’d still get PIP if working full time in a minimum wage job - PIP isn’t an out of work benefit.

A disabled person with a NMW job would be significantly better off than a disabled person solely on benefits. Their PIP isn't connected with their work status, so if they could do a job they'd continue to recieve that, plus their wage plus disability premiums that may passport to UC on top. There is no financial disincentive for disabled people to work. The issues are finding jobs suitable for their disability, and employers who will consider them.

But they would still get PIP if they worked.

and they would still be entitled to some UC most likely so the chances of being off better not working are pretty slim

There's a benefit cap and benefits aren't that high. ESA is £90 a week. That's to pay all your bills. You may also have to contribute towards rent.

The OP hasn't said what benefits these 'friends' are on.

Pip is nothing to do with whether you’re in work or not though. If their mental health illness is such that it’s impeding on their ability to live an independent life, chances are that they aren’t just “a bit down”

would you care to share the illnesses that have qualified your ‘friends’ for pip? And the rates they get.

Hypothetically though, let’s say you’re right and they lose their pip. We’re talking approximately £74/week if they get low rate daily living. A full time job would bring in far more than that. So would cover the loss in PIP and ESA. So they wouldn’t be worse off.

This one:

OK, let's do a little thought experiment here.
OP, imagine that prices are exactly the same as they are now. You are working a NMW job, but getting £5k in the bank. Your person with mental ill health is getting £6k in benefits.
You are both very comfortable.
Now do you still feel the same way about the situation?

@pointythings yes

Someone with the same circumstances wouldn’t get more in benefits than a full-time job. That is because of the UC taper rate and work allowance for anyone with LCW/LCWRA (or who has DC on the claim). PIP isn’t an out of work benefit. Neither is it a requirement to use benefits to pay for carers.

Someone whose mental health improves enough so they can work a minimum wage job, which is often bloody brutal, is unlikely to get PIP.

There’s no need to be clever, I only pointed out why it’s not that simple. It is a piss take that some working people need UC top ups. However the times that we are in also means business can’t just pay out ridiculous amounts in labour, if they did that costs of what they provide will need to go up. If it’s a small business barely turning a profit or only enough to make it worthwhile it would put them out of business equalling no jobs

So because shit companies can get away with paying people a starvation wage the government should also let people with health problems live at starvation level? Okay.

What are these large UC top ups that so many seem to think single people on minimum wage and renting get?

Also I don't know why you have it in for people with mental illness more than any other illness, smacks of you knowing shit all about it and having decided it "doesn't count" tbh.

People who work can and do get PIP. Obviously not all, but some.

I have justified it: people on state benefits for disabilities OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL shouldn’t be left to live a minimum wage style life.

As I’ve already mentioned, I also believe that NMW should be higher, such that people can live on it without being subsidised by the government.

People on minimum wage can, if they wish, upskill and progress through life into better paid jobs (in some cases, not all). They can also claim UC to top up their NMW income. Someone who is born with (or develops) a condition (be it physical or mental) that means they cannot work, has 0 opportunity to do this.

You have to have quite severe mental health problems to get PIP.

My 18 year old has autism and claims PIP. He is better off working.

How awful and narrow-minded! I wouldn't want you as a friend, being judgmental over mental health is ugly, i hope you don't suffer or have to end up on benefits. How would you cope? rant over

I would agree with you if you said that people on benefits shouldn't be better off than people working minimum wage jobs. I don't agree with the singling out of people with MH problems though. Yes there are a lot of folk using mental ill health as an excuse to not work however there are also people with severe and enduring mental illness whose lives genuinely are absolutely blighted by their mental illness and they'd never be able to hold down a job.

Exactly. they would need to be in a pretty high rent area or have kids to get any UC top up.

Why are these threads popping up all the time? It causes such division and nastiness.
I am unable to work due to MH and ND issues. What I claim in benefits is no where near what someone on NMW takes home. I live alone with no kids.
The people who have a lot in benefits usually have disabled kids and rent costs that UC mostly covers.
You can have their "free" money if you want but you have to have the disabilites too.

OK. So then essentially your problem is one of envy. Comparison is the thief of joy, you know. There's something very mean spirited about a large subset of the UK population - they don't care how poor they are, as long as someone else is worse off than they are. They love to kick down and never want to reach out with a hand up. It's a very unpleasant mindset.

Instead of griping about people with serious illnesses getting more money than others, why not put that energy into agitating for a better standard of living for everyone? And why not be thankful for what you have, i.e. not a serious mental illness?

BTW your persistence in thinking that if your friends with their serious MH issues were to find work they would lose their PIP speaks volumes. I wish the benefit bashers on MN would take the trouble to actually learn how the system works.