To think it doesn't always start at home?

[BePoliteOpalQuail]

I have recently been supply teaching in different schools for a month.
Many lovely, hardworking and studious kids, quite a few who try it on with having supply teachers.
Some who spoke to me like I was something they'd stepped in, even at the age of 11 and 12 which is concerning.

I just wonder more and more where this comes from, as it was concerning. I went to seek support from another classroom and a 12 year old girl scowled at me 'Look at you, just stood (standing) there.

I would ask troublemakers to move seats and some would pretty much laugh in my face and say 'erm, nope'.

I asked a 13 year old to put their phone away and they said 'Are you dumb or what? I'm not on it. Are you gonna stop going on at me now?'

Further examples. Or if I gave them a sanction or had them removed some of them would literally shriek at me 'What have I done! I haven't even done anything! What the fuck, you're a joke!

I have been out of teaching for a while but was astonished to hear the complete lack of respect. I know supply teachers are usually regarded as not 'proper teachers' by kids, but I just never remember it being this bad.

There is absolutely zero respect for teachers and adults. A real level of contempt from them if you dare to ask them to do anything, and a lashing of abuse.

Some people will say this starts at home. It may do sometimes, but not for all of them?
What's the solution to behaviour like this?
Each time, I told them firmly to never speak to me, or anyone, in that manner ever again.

t is about teaching children to be considerate of the needs of others. That wants do not come before needs.

Sorry what? Whose wants and whose needs?

No my three year old does not need to give up her seat, that she needs (because a three year old is - unlike an adult - not able to stand on moving transport), because you want to sit down, and I am also not required to turn myself into a human stacking chair because you want to sit down.

I always give up my seat to people less able to stand, including elderly people, small children, and mothers with babies and I would expect my teenage children to do the same. However, I would not expect my teenage children to give up their seat for entitled, able-bodied adults who are perfectly able to stand.

Again, you confuse the “give up seat to those less able to stand” discussion which all of us agree on, with “kids should give up their seats to able bodied adults” argument which no one has yet been able to explain to me beyond their own entitlement (or resorting back to “less able or elderly”).

👏 Exactly

I remember being mean to supply teachers in the 80s, pack mentality. When kids were mean to me as a supply teacher I thought it was probably karma.

Norway wasn't involved in WW1, so that doesn't wash.

Why are you repeatedly banging on about a 3 year old standing? Not one person has said that should happen. You know fine well they haven't.

She thought I deserved a seat at the table and that she did too. She's a feminist.

Do you mean to be so rude?

So your own Mum told you you couldn't sit in her lap because she was introverted? Genius.

I’ve worked in 6 different secondary schools over the last 10+ years (either as support staff or teaching staff, sometimes permanent and sometimes supply) in a nice middle class town in the south east and all this language is very very common. None of it shocks me.
recently I had a 14year old just sneer at me and told me I was “pathetic”. Not out of anger or hate, it was so controlled it was unnerving.
I would have be mortified if I ever spoke to an adult like that, never mind a teacher. The lack of respect today is just horrific. It’s why I no longer work in a school

This thread shows the shift in cultural norms. The reality is that 30 years ago, there was a social heirachy, and yes, children were at the bottom. Now, I'm not sure I'd want to go back to that time, but to use the train example, I'd argue that yes, children should still be lower in the pecking order when it comes to seat availability - if insufficient seats, small children sit on parent laps and older children/teenagers stand. But as can be seen from a few posters on this thread, that is not necessarily the universal view. A teenager is considered the same level of "importance' for getting a seat as an able bodied adult. And that just isn't the way I was brought up and frankly, it's not the way I'm bringing up my children. Or at least, I'm trying not to.

I also want to add to my comment above. Sometimes, it's not even about heirachy so much as just social norms that make it easier for us all to navigate a very crowded world. If we know tha tmen stand back for women, younger people stand back for older people etc, for example, there's less instances of people being smacked or pushed as they try to navigate. Just like we know that we drive on the left and yield to the right etc etc. But for a lot of people, children seem to come first at all times. First to get things, first to sit, first to eat, first first first, but then that filters through into their lives overall.

I don't buy into the idea of a social hierarchy or a pecking order at all. I believe that every human being has equal value and importance, regardless of their age or any other characteristic. I don't think children should count for less just because they're little, or because they've paid less or whatever.

That said, I always taught my dd to sit on my lap to let an adult sit down because she could and because it is important to be considerate towards other people. As a teenager, I'd have encouraged her to stand up for an elderly person or a small child who might need the seat more than she did. And I would have modeled the same behaviour myself.

I'm not a fan of teaching children to respect their elders simply because they're older. I think we should teach them to respect everyone. And that includes giving up a seat to anyone who might need it more than they do, regardless of the reason.

This thread shows the shift in cultural norms. The reality is that 30 years ago, there was a social heirachy, and yes, children were at the bottom.

Exactly. That is what this conversation is really about.

Now, I'm not sure I'd want to go back to that time, but to use the train example, I'd argue that yes, children should still be lower in the pecking order when it comes to seat availability

But why?

But why?

1 because it makes navigating the world easier if we know where we stand
2 because adults are more likely to have a reason to want/need the seat
3 because I'm okay with the concept that we respect age and experience and defer accordingly. Today, the child gives up the seat for the adult, in 20 years time, the child IS the adult and gets the seat.
4 because all humans need to learn that they aren't the most important person and that it's appropriate to consider other people and that sometimes someone else's need is more important than theirs. This is an easy and useful way to do this.

But I suspect most of my reasons won't resonate with you because you don't agree with them. But the problem is if we don't teach children these things when they're young, they don't stand a chance of understanding them when they're older.

Well put

I don't buy into the idea of a social hierarchy or a pecking order at all.

whilst I don’t disagree that we should treat all people, regardless of age or whatever, respect and treat equally, there is also a hierarchy whether you like it or not and children need to be raised to understand that and treat the different levels appropriately.

I’ll go back to my experience of being a teacher- I respected everyone, and treated everyone with respect. It didn’t matter if you were the cleaner or the trust ceo, I respected you. However, with the teachers, the TA’s, the cleaners and maintenance staff there was more of a friendly banter too - for example I wouldn’t think twice about swearing around them in the staff room. Absolutely no way would I speak like that to the headteacher and never to the trust ceo! There is a hierarchy, where I act differently around those “elders” (not always older obvs). Children will enter the workplace in the not too distant future and unfortunately for them, they will be at the bottom of the rung to begin with. They are not the bosses, they do not get treated the same as the managers, they have to earn that title and respect. It is how life works. your brand new hire does not get the same level of respect and treatment as your 20+yr employee. They do need teaching that unfortunately, they are at the bottom and they have to give up that seat for someone older. Then when they are older, someone will give up their seat for them.

Every single word of this.

To date my DC both in their 30's have never caused me much bother, never caused me to have to go into school due to behaving badly, never bought the law to my door, and never caused neighbours to complain.

Am I lucky, no, am I bragging again no...
Did I realise when I had DC that I would, with their dad be totally responsible for them and as the first people to have the most input in their lives it was our job to guide them.....yes 100% I did.
it's called parenting....preparing along the years for your DC to become adults.

Children should have a childhood, get messy, have fun along the way but dear lordy....to say no DC should ever have to give up a seat....do people not realise that their child of today will god willing, be one of the future's adults...and reading some of these replies it doesn't take much to see why we have a generation where some think they're above everyone else and practically shocked to find out they'll have to be wiping their own arse at some point in their life.